Those qps, the masters, the fades/blademasters!

[Vurek]

While I was digging away, the moments that make up a dull day...

I was oddly wondering about kinslayer and it's "achievable" options by qps.

I began to think upon the fade/soulless/possibly draghkar(ick spelling) and the masters/blademasters/blah blah.

I would like to hear everyone's opinion on masters or anything achievable by qps.

In my opinion, I hope this time around, kinslayer will have reasonably achievable masters, then a harder achievable "fade/blademaster" or the next lvl.

I understand that...giving bonuses to supposedly the "stronger pkers" is kind of stupid, yet people see it as a bonus to working hard. Naturally, I think these options are ridiculous and hard earned...a double edged sword so to say.

Yet perhaps, this time around, instead of having all of one side mastered as a year ago, we could have it hopefully evened out for both LS and DS.

In my opinion, is an LS master worth it? Maybe, but honestly, I would want a fade first...(hence why a year ago nearly all of DS was masters whereas there was like 1 ls master).

The LSers don't have an option after master, so thus I think the people who want to work for those "bonuses" would rather work for the fade/etc.

Maybe this time, we could have blademasters for ls(similar to fade) as an exact same qps requirement for the opposing sides.

Also, I would REALLY enjoy to not see any Wolfbrothers this time around. To me, I think it's a joke. Honestly, wbs are terrible. Mayhaps then another "greyman" type for ls could be the wolfbrother, instead of a secret clan with buddy connections.

I hope this time around, giving with the new eq and smobs and other changes, we could change the qps attainable system. Rather than just master then the few options for DS only, let's do it for LS too.(and this isn't for me, this is all fairness, I want to be a damn fade, I want to scare ppl )

And naturally, the reason why we didn't have any blademasters or attainable qps like DS could be that we didn't have anyone with those qps. But maybe if it was more readily said you could be xxx if you worked this hard people would work for it.

Mainly, this is just a post about what ya'll think for masters and other attainable aspects for qps.

I think master weapons are kinda dumb, for when the master rips, instead of giving the person who ripped them a chance at using that weapon, they can just return it or give it in for qps...which is not too cool I think. Returning is awesome, but you either return the master weapon or you don't, same with other eq. But you can't use it

So perhaps masters could be looked at, and other things.

I was just interested in this, I had some good talks with Nicotine and other players about what masters could have and maluses or bonuses and same for fades/blademasters.

Would like to here what ya'll think

(honestly the good no-bonused pk is fun as hell, but I'd love to be able to talk to humans on ds, taunting is fun )

[Trin]

I agree that wolfbrothers shouldn't be a secret clan... and if lighuxe saw me say that statement right htere he'd be like 'stop being jealous of not getting into wolfbrothers. stop talking about stuff you don't know about'

I agree with you completely....except for master weapons. i want to be able to name my weapon.

unless of course they have it like wotmud where i can restring it...

[Lithium]

I'd like to see masters have the ability to lead mobs. It makes perfect sense RPishly and also provides a nice bonus in PK.

I like the way master weapons are implemented right now, but if someone can come up with a better idea I'd love to hear it. The qp cost and the whole "you don't get a weapon from killing a master" thing were kind of annoying.

I think the only thing Lightside needs aside from Blademasters is an equivalent for thieves. Wolfbrothers have somewhat filled the gap in the past (although I don't agree with their clanning methods), but it really isn't the ideal solution. Maybe make some kind of Uber Assassin class that gets stabber-friendly bonuses.

Wolfbrothers are a mess that can be done at a later period of time, when someone comes up with a fair clanning system for them.

[Vurek]

Amen, I agree completely, I would be glad to post some ideas soon about possible things for masters or other bonuses to change.

And honestly, I think fades using attack with axes and other huge weapons is kinda...nuts. If you think about it, in the books, a normal person could kill a fade solo, they just had to be very skilled.

So perhaps fade bonuses could be looked into when we get there so that the fade could still get his ass kicked and kick some ass(I want to get there )

Galnor, any thoughts? Anyone else?

[Guest]

BLADEMASTER AND FADE: I don't see why they should have attack nerfed, I mean they have to prac it up to make it of any use, and pracs are 2 a piece (which I think should perhaps be changed down to 1 because fades are elite etc.). I mean after all that work (and if scalps are still 2 qps each) fading will be a challenge still so hard work should be rewarded. Just make it so humans can get something akin to a fade, like a blademaster who cna practice bladeforms and do damage with a timer similar to kick, but they would get E(nergy)P(oints) or something and each different BF does different damage and takes away some EP dependant upon damage, like fades have DP and such. That way they won't practice the biggest baddest BF and be able to spam it, since that would be dumb and overpowered unlike fades. Of course, they could only use swords and be restricted to attack with swords.

FADES: They have maluses people, kill their horse and they are left on the ground with HUMAN moves. The horse isn't even that great either. They have to practice attack and practice fear/fade. Stop whining about OMFG he has attack and shimmering axe lol!!!1111one not fair!!11 It costs him practices that could be put in other things like a fear skill or fadeport skill or even dodge and stab or something like that. Fades should be elite though, so one prac per practice for all skills should be the deal they get in exchange for human moves and a crappy mount that can be stabbed/charged. Perhaps make the fade pracs (for fear etc.) cost two or something like that instead, that way they can either trade skills for special skills or special skills for uber dodge heron bash combo or some such. I think fades should be like that, and it's not like everyone and their uncle is going to be a fade. It takes long enough to master, and with fading there will probably be given a quest to get faded so thats another thing. That quest would and should be hard. It would probably be something like kill the Amyrlian or the major lightside leaders, as well as to kill some legends or something like that. Fading should be hard, and only those who deserve it should get it. It should NOT be anything like OK get 1500 qps and you're in.

FADES AND RESPONSIBILITIES: I remember longer ago also about a post Manimal made about fades. He mentioned something about how fades should be changed that instead of upon being made fade joining chosen or some such, they should be incorporated into their previous clan as a fade leader who would be there to lead their clan around. If that person is good enough and shows enough devotion towards their clan, they should be put at the top of their clan's ranks as a leader and guide in their pursuit of proliferating their cause. Instead of making a separate chosen (perhaps it could be done and their would be dual clanning like how it was coded for DFs, the fade could be inducted into chosen if good enough and stay in the old clan) clan make it more along the lines of a Shadow Council type of thing.

HUMAN THIEVES: Also, in line with Lith's idea for an uber assassin clan/class, make it something like a troll thief including the regen + 10-15 moves. Make them need to prac a bit more for ride horses though (3-4 per prac), so that it will balance out. Also, perhaps give them a small percent stab bonus, around 1-5 percent of dmg. So a 300 stab would instead do 315ish or something like that.

WB: I also suggest taking wolfbrother out, or at least making it so that you cannot join unless you get fade qps, because they have insane moves. I am sure everyone knows what their bonuses are so I will not go into that. Perhaps as a way to down them osme, make their move regen a bit worse than anyone else's, so that they don't run double digits of rooms after one tick from haggard. Perhaps they could even get downed about 10 or so moves from their base and not be able to add them from wearing certain types of eq. For the most part WB should be closed until its really needed, since theres going to probably be a pfile wipe soon and everyone will start out equal again. Even then WB is overpowered as is and should not be opened.

[Trin]

shadow stallions suck huh vodka? wtf are you and wtf do you know? have you ever seen someone run around on shadow stallions. they like NEVER HAGG. i don't like your attitude vodka mr. noname.

[Lithium]

Shadow stallions are insane...Couple that with fades keeping their trolloc moves, and fades are harder to chase down than Wolfbrothers. I think the biggest problem with fades is that fear doesn't go off on a high enough %....Either up fear so it goes off at a reasonable rate, or make it practiceable.

Attack with all weapons depends on the variety of weapons available after the eq revamp. I think ideally it should be limited to swords and 1-handed weapons from other weapon classes. Weapons should be varied enough by then to give fades enough variety if they want it without losing one of their main perks. Maybe give them some kind of issuable tainted sword that messes up humans if they grab it along with their masters, since RPishly fades should be wielding swords

Shadow stallions need to be downed. Give them maybe 10 more max moves, 5 more moves a tick, and an extra 30-40 hps.


As for Blademasters, obviously they should only be wielding swords...So limiting them to attack only with swords makes perfect sense. Instead of fear, uber mounts, and fading they get bladeforms.

Give them a set number of "sword practices" or something that they can use to get these bladeforms, which can have a variety of effects ranging from offensive to defensive, as well as passive and active. Passive forms would work similarly to WoTMUD's master postures. These bladeforms should use up some kind of "blade points" similar to a fade's shadow points.


As for an "uber assassin", Vodka had some decent ideas. The class would have to be effective on foot, so give them an extra 60 base moves and 2 moves per room no matter the terrain. The fact that they can still ride makes them ridiculous, so make horses tire more quickly when one of these is riding.

Also, give them a practiceable skill that lets you add poison to your weapon for a limited time. Make it consume some kind of herb, and if a weapon-poisoning potion is already being implemented make it an improvement off it in some way.



Just throwing some more thoughts out there, feel free to comment as you will.

[Vurek]

I appreciate all the replies.

Please withdraw from flaming each other(...) and allow everyone a chance even if they don't have a "big name".

But, if you have not played a kinslayer fade, I'd recommend we look at what their bonuses are obviously:

1.Fading(needs to be praced at murash)
2.Attack(needs to be pracced)
3.Shadow stallion(ride to be praced)
4.Fear(not pracced)
5.Given 2 pracs per session for all pracs

Now, looking over this list, one may think that this is not an overpowered achievement, yet, in my opinion, it very surely is.

I have played a fade multiple times on testmud for 15+ hours roughly(jeez )

Now, when I played fade, I was nearly unstoppable most of the time, when encountering normal humans. Yet during test mud their were gaidins with the same fade bonuses so it was a nasty slugfest.

But all in all, a fade is a doomsickle. Any good char gets a hand on these bonuses, will wreak freaking havok in a sense.

The horse is absolutely adorable, that baby can run from fd to baerlon without hagging(hell yes:P) but that is enormously overpowered. Thankfully, one of our previous fades didn't use his abilities to the max, otherwise ds would have owned ls even more...

Attack with any weapon type is out of rp and insane. I know rp is not a big thing here, but if it is issued or influenced in game, perhaps some may ensue. I don't picture a fade with a huge axe...I picture a fade with a sick looking sword, slicing like hell at you.

Fading is very well done, and due to the certain size of kinslayer at the current moment, I think group fading is plain nasty. So perhaps that may be looked at or considered.(or a malus of draining hps of the faders or something...)

Fear-I can not remember the exact thing fear does on kinslayer, for the few times it happened I never payed attention, but I hope it's not like wotmuds. If it is, then i really think that should be changed with perhaps fear causing a degrade in the opponents ob...or defense(makes perfect sense to me).

The only REAL malus of being a fade, is the fade's pracs. When looking at what one might consider the most uber setup: Combo/dodge with a weapon that charges/and or bashes and sick defense. With attack/ride/sneak(can't remember if the pony sneaks, i don't think so, never could afford it anyways) a fade is very hurt practice wise.

I remember my fade could prac axes, bash , attack 99%, and ride to some extent, then 70% ish fade, and notice and that was about it. Ran out of pracs like wildfire.

So thus, there are 2 obvious ways in order to balance a fade:

1. Hurt them by pracs
2. Hurt them by bonuses

In my opinion, I'd like to see less bonuses(ie heavy heavy dmg/bashing weapons with attack gone, no group fade, lower horse mvs/regen) and see a reasonable prac cost(ie 1 prac for warrior/hunter, 2 for rogue perhaps, and 1 for fade pracs.)

All can be considered later, just laying some ideas out, I like ya'lls replies, gotta run and eat my italian sausage

To me, the idea of these achievable bonused chars, is not to get insane bonuses to own ppl halfassedly, but to gain a few things that give a person an edge, but still have to show some mad skill.

Also, someone please address the actual affect of the current fear, I can't remember.

[Lithium]

Its like wotmud fear. You can't spam well, its hard to start timers, and you might miss a combat round occaisionally.

[Vurek]

Wotmud fear is ridiculous. I have always hated it and think it is probably among the stupidest things wotmud has done.

And we would be fools to continue it

Thus, I think a degradation of ob/and or defense could be ensued instead of this ridiuclous fear crap(would still be fear, but the opponent could still operate normal, just lower def and ob)

To me, that is entirely reasonable, and of course i think fear should be praced.

But also, in continuancy with the 2 "malus" options that are easily obvious:

A fade with 1 prac per all pracs or something along those lines would have its near max defense, max capabilities at bashing/charging/stabbing and thus THAT would make a fade sick.

Whereas if we go with heavy/thicker bonuses: A fade struggles to achieve max defense/capabilities yet gets fear, attack with sick bashing weapons/dmgs, group fade or other bonuses.

I want to be/fight a fade that is the best it CAN be, so that when I kill it/play it I can know I owned it with skill or played it with skill, not with an over addiction to bonuses.

Naturally, this might even make a fade stronger(ie the player kicks mad ass) yet it would still be plausible to malus them further.

Of course, all logic for the balancing of fade could be applied to the other achievable qps types, blademaster, soulless..etc.

__________________________

Now, to the Masters!

Bonus as of yet:

1.Master weapon-gets to have 3 "upgrades", max of 2 on a type, most common config: 2 on dmg and 1 on weight/ob/parry...

When we actually had Masters back in the tulon days(a year ago) many masters mastered their weapons on uniques/very strong weapons.

Thus causing their weapon to be so uber, it was sicker than the other best weapons.(I still remember Osis' nocturn, now that weapon, was the stuff, pure doomage.)

Anyone love this system? Or would you consider other options as I read earlier:

Perhaps:

1. Mob lead(1-2 mob depending on ranks...etc)
2. Weapon naming(instead of mastering a weapon, could rename an alrdy named weapon, yet once you die, could have it's name erased so as the opposing side could use it-thus allowing eq exchange and not the ever present-"damn it's a master weapon, i can return or i can get some qps)
3. Perhaps Master postures?(wotmud ick )
4. Maybe a 1+ master dmg/pb/ob/db...etc...perhaps one of those to choose from or balance out(again this to me is rather stupid, I don't think masters should be getting more bonuses)
5. any suggestions?

In my opinion, I think mob lead and weapon naming would definately be the most balanced, weapon naming being a direct MUST. It would be fun to name weapons and be known for wielding xxx.

Mob lead would just be the other tweak that could be used if it was just the master vs 2 other pcs, or could be used anyway, but that mob could possibly...cost qps.(similar to issuing master weapon)

Mob lead could be looked at, ie it could cost qps to get a mob that would follow direct orders of the master(bash, etc) whereas the normal clan mob could just be ordered to follow and grouped with the master.

Any ideas suggestions?

And please...no flaming...

[Nicotine]

i think that once someone has achieved a status of fade/blademaster etc... they should gain more abilities at the cost of lesser abilities. for instance:


FADE - can ONLY wield an issued sick-looking sword
DREADLORD - can ONLY wield an issued staff
GREYMAN - can ONLY wield an issued dagger
DRAGHKAR - not allowed to wield anything, the whole claw thing, i dunno it isn't imped yet, so i won't bother.
BLADEMASTER - can ONLY wield an issued heron sword


then, if vurek's "no issuing, only renaming" thing works out for masters, these will be the only issued weapons and we wont have so many intances where we have to just return everyone's weapons because they are all unattainable.

For masters, i agree wholeheartedly. mob lead would be good, it makes perfect rp sense, and weapon renaming sounds better to me too. also, maybe at the rank of master we could have the option of purchasing a personal playerhouse as was discussed in some other forum earlier. this way there wouldnt be too many playerhouses around, and it would spice things up a bit to have them raided.

[Vurek]

Love the idea of masters getting the house thing! That would work out perfect(of course, we could hopefully have quests to earn some substantial qps when noone is on to kill...) thus nearly fufilling that req that people wanted when noone was around.

Or perhaps upon reaching a reasonable rank like 5+ you could get some sort of thing like this, so that for those people who would appreciate things to do when noone else is on, perhaps that might work for the greater good..all things considered might be a viable option.

I like your idea Nico of issueable weapons, but would this be limited to just a weapon with the same stats EVERY damn time?

Because to tell you the truth, I would get VERY bored if I logged on my fade and always had same weapon with same stats.

I think you might mean nico, the weapon is similar to current master weapon, yet similar weapon type but could change it's stats?

To me that seems a bit harsh, its good stuff though, keep em coming!

[Vurek]

I just remembered another possibility for masters to be played with:

Could "enhance" their wielded weapon (only for when it is wielded by them) for a certain amount of time(possibly a few tics..etc) but could cost "MPs(master points? ) or something along those lines.

So basically, it is a plausible master bonus that could up parry or up dmg or something...but would only last a very short while and take a long time to regen...

Shrug, just another idea, I'm not too keen on it, I like mob lead and renaming weapons best and the house!

[Kombat]

I agree that something needs to be done about wolfbro...Not just about the whole bonus's thing..but the clanning process itself..ATM its nothing but a who is friends with who sort of thing and that just sickens me..because its with both secret lightside clans..which arent too secret... Heck half the rogues and stabbers that werent wolfbro were better at the stabbing then the wolfbros..but once those wolfbros get those bonus's they are just too hard to chase down and finish as your regular run of the mill trolloc..

[Trin]

i agree. clanning process out the whole. i think the player of bollesedun should not be made 'automically' council of wolfbrother. i know this whole reason why they choose to have only a few people. 'we need to choose people we can trust' of course what means is i trust my friends i don't trust you so you're not getting in.

[Vurek]

No wb=plain and simple.

Otherwise, when I become fade, I will chase those fuckers across the damn world and destroy them.

Wait, that's what anyone will get anyways!

[Guest]

Master bonuses were fine, for correction you wernt able to base them on rare/unqiues. The only thing that might of been a bit out of hand was the +dmg on dagger which made there stabs incredible. When we had so many masters on darkside the problem in pk was that they would all log on at the same time and you would be ganked by 3-4 masters which was close to unstopable.

As to nicotines idea that blademasters/fades can only use those weapons the reason i think that is just so stupid is that most people like to change fighting styles etc, if they can only use 1 weapon the char would become extremly borring especialy seing as they have nothing left to achieve if they are already blademasters/fades.


Now on top of Blademasters/masters i think that the Legend list should also get some small bonuses, legend 1 having the top bonuses. Just something small like maybe +10moves +regen +dmg, or maybe you could use your WP to issue some kind of rare equipment that only legends can wear.

[Growler]

Not a good idea Engel. It just encourages people not to take any risks so they can keep their precious legend eq.

And Engel, back in those days you forget the fact that often LS would often bring in groups of 6-7 vs a solo person. And lets not forget those autotracking uber bonused warders that were basically fades, so it isn't like DS had a few masters and LS had nothing.

[Guest]

well you could code it differntly. For instant you could make it that you have 2 levels, 1 level based on exp and mob killing. Then a secondary one which you can advance by gained TP. For instance

Current tp : 593
Achieved tp : 1349 ranking you lvl 2 - giving you 4 extra pracs

[Guest]

or you could make the WP level give you special pracs, these pracs could be used for things like specialization in weapons, Sword - gives you a 5 % chance on another hit , Axe - 5% more damage , clubs- better chance to bash, daggers - 5% higher ob. etc or maybe bladeforms or something.
This way each char would be a bit more unqiue

[Growler]

Well, in the newer form it's not a bad idea. It would add abit of variety, and could be fun. I think you'll have to wait a long while before it happens (if it happens), though.

[Trin]

i think warders/fades should only get attack with 1h weapons. would even things out a bit they can use all weapons just get attack with those 1h ones.

[Phantasm]

true. imagine attack with shimmering or some crap. totally unbalanced and would eat anyone else without giving them a chance

[Chase]

How about attack for them for 2h weapons too for eq under ... 16 lbs? So no attack with crazy axes, etc.

[Guest]

Sounds like an idea, attack with 1h. I mean most fades are probably going to go combo spears or lblades, so whats it matter