Thief Balance

Chase · Post by **Chase** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:49 am

I have noticed that with dodge being downed some, and with the influx of channelers, that thieves are in poor shape. Any ideas of whats wrong with the class and what can/should be changed? I was thinking of a move with a bash-like timer than melees for extra dmg and that has higher ob than the character's normal ob. Thoughts?

Aj · Post by Aj » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:39 am

circle, I proposed it to G years ago.

I even have a circle snippet!!

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:44 am

Little bit from Aeonian Dreams.

Lithium · Post by **Lithium** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:43 pm

Or thieves could just accept that they aren't meant to be a primary combat class. In my view, a thief is a support character: they should be scouting, striking behind enemy lines, blocking, spamming doors, taking hits so bashers/channelers can do their damage, and doing damage where and when they can (fleehitting or tanking absers/comboers for a while and whatnot, the occasional backstab when an opening appears). Thieves even make the ideal leader of a group because they don't need to worry about managing timers during a fight, only organizing their group members and chasing.

As for thieves vs channelers, thieves should learn that they have no business trying to take on a channeler toe to toe. Go stab them while they are running timers on someone else, or if you can't do that do something useful by logging in a basher

To sum it up, thieves are fine as long as you are fulfilling your role properly and not just going for a backstab constantly or trying to fight channelers 1v1

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:03 pm

Lithium wrote:Or thieves could just accept that they aren't meant to be a primary combat class. In my view, a thief is a support character: they should be scouting, striking behind enemy lines, blocking, spamming doors, taking hits so bashers/channelers can do their damage, and doing damage where and when they can (fleehitting or tanking absers/comboers for a while and whatnot, the occasional backstab when an opening appears). Thieves even make the ideal leader of a group because they don't need to worry about managing timers during a fight, only organizing their group members and chasing.

As for thieves vs channelers, thieves should learn that they have no business trying to take on a channeler toe to toe. Go stab them while they are running timers on someone else, or if you can't do that do something useful by logging in a basher

To sum it up, thieves are fine as long as you are fulfilling your role properly and not just going for a backstab constantly or trying to fight channelers 1v1

I share the same views.

Kiril · Post by **Kiril** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:04 pm

How about shortening stab timer? Seems to me that, especially with the addition of channelers, stab has become nearly obsolete since a simple air scythe can botch one. Also, I have noticed in quite a few pk logs that bashers can just spam bash at a patty and with 99% notice, bash any thief who is attempting a stab on that person or any other person in the room. For example, 3 people are sitting at a gate patty, thief goes in and starts his/her stab and the timer gets up to the end...BASH. Thief gets bashed by a warrior who never engaged previously and thief is dead. At the very least make stab as long as bash timer. Another idea that I have talked about with Koradin I think, was that of enhancing the stab skill itself. By this I mean allowing someone to start a normal stab timer, then the player would be able to input a command at any point before the timer ends and initiate his/her sneak attack. The longer the timer runs, however, the greater the damage dealt upon a successful landing. Obviously the command that launches the "stab" attack would have to be entered at least a second or two after the initial "backstab target", so as to avoid an instant damage attack.

hide
backstab XXX

You silently approach your victim...

=
* + - = %
attack

Emerging from your hiding place, you quickly decide to strike at your enemy.

*XXX* shrieks as you thrust a lion-etched dagger into his/her side.<----Maybe 150-200 damage attack

hide
backstab xxx

You silently approach your victim...

=
* + - = % = - + * = % + - <------Actual end of timer, no new input required

After lying in wait for quite some, you execute a well prepared attack on your enemy.

*XXX* makes a choking sound as you slit his/her throat with a lion-etched dagger. <----Letting the timer run to the end results in a killing blow.
*XXX* grimaces in pain.
You receive some experience points!
Your fame around the world has increased.
Your blood freezes as you hear *XXX*'s death cry.
*XXX* is dead! R.I.P.

Also, the total timer would be longer than current stab timer(the one I put in the example was longer) and there would be maybe a couple more stages of when you could launch your backstab attack during the timer.

In addition, if the target of a stab is sitting, resting, or sleeping, the stab should result in a blick 100% of the time. That would also apply to the current stab system if it does not already.

Kiril · Post by **Kiril** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:11 pm

As for the whole bit about defense/dodge being currently in the decline...

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s body, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your legs into bloody fragments!

HP:Scratched MV:Excellent - Nicotine: Hurt>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s legs, but he dodges the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s hands, but he dodges the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your body very hard.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your legs, but you dodge the attack.

HP:Scratched MV:Excellent - Nicotine: Hurt>
wh
-------------- Immortals --------------
Galnor [45 rooms to go]

-------------- Players --------------
Mat (idle) (linkless)
Leasidil
Inercia
Kiril dur Ahmid

-------------- Statistics --------------
Players: 4 humans, 2 trollocs, 0 seanchan, and 0 aiel roaming the world.
Today there was a high of 6 players.

HP:Scratched MV:Excellent - Nicotine: Hurt>

Nicotine's shield reflects the sunlight, momentarily blinding you!
You yell, 'Arrrgh!'

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Nicotine: Hurt>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s body, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your feet very hard.
*Nicotine* pierces your arms into bloody fragments!

HP:Hurt MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
change mood wimpy
Mood changed to: Wimpy

HP:Hurt MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
in
You are carrying:
a small brass lantern
a large slab of meat [2]

HP:Hurt MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

*Nicotine* growls 'hWm?'

HP:Hurt MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s head, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your body extremely hard.
*Nicotine* pierces your hands extremely hard.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
grab lantern
You light a small brass lantern and hold it.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
drop all
You drop a large slab of meat.
You drop a large slab of meat.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
stat
You are a 137 year old male human thief.
Your mood is currently: Wimpy
Your height is 4 feet, 11 inches, weight 149 pounds, weight carried 0.0 lbs, worn: 23.7 lbs.
Offensive Bonus: 150 Dodge Bonus: 132, Parry Bonus: 150
You are wanted by the following groups: Andor
Your abilities are: Str: 12, Int: 16, Wis: 0, Dex: 20, Con: 19
You have died 36 times, 30 times to other players, 6 times to monsters, and killed 24 other worthy players.
Your armor absorbs 2% damage on average.
You are affected by:
SNEAK
NO QUIT
NOTICE

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Inercia has arrived from the north, riding a black warhorse.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s legs, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your body into bloody fragments!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
k dark
You do the best you can!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Nicotine's shield reflects the sunlight, momentarily blinding you!
You yell, 'Arrrgh!'

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s arms, but he dodges the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s arms, but he dodges the attack.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your waist, but you dodge the attack.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
k dark
You do the best you can!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
l
Fork in the Lane
The road forks into three different branches here. Northward, the Malkier gate
can be clearly seen. To the south, the wall of the Fal Dara keep blocks all
passage. The second road moves both east and west, around the keep.
[ Exits: n e s w ]
You see fresh tracks of a trolloc leaving north.
An old wooden bell tower leans to one side as if about to collapse.
An ancient iron bell hangs from the tower, covered in faded scrollwork.
A large, cooked slab of meat is lying here, waiting to be eaten. [2]
Inercia is standing here, riding a black warhorse.
*Nicotine* is here, fighting YOU!.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
k dark
You do the best you can!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

*Nicotine* avoids being bashed by Inercia who loses his balance and falls!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s body, but he parries the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s legs, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your legs, but you parry the attack.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Inercia's weave fizzles out and dies.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Inercia tries to blast *Nicotine*'s body, but he parries the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s legs, but he parries the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s body, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your head into bloody fragments!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Inercia's weave fizzles out and dies.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Inercia blasts *Nicotine*'s body extremely hard.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s hands, but he dodges the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s shoulders, but he dodges the attack.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your feet, but you parry the attack.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your body, but you dodge the attack.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
nar no channel room inercia
You narrate, 'no channel room inercia'

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s hands, but he parries the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s arms, but he dodges the attack.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your arms, but you parry the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your body very hard.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

*Nicotine* avoids being bashed by Inercia who loses his balance and falls!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
change mood wimpy

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s head, but he parries the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s body, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your hands extremely hard.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
Mood changed to: Wimpy

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
stat
You are a 137 year old male human thief.
Your mood is currently: Wimpy
Your height is 4 feet, 11 inches, weight 149 pounds, weight carried 0.0 lbs, worn: 23.7 lbs.
Offensive Bonus: 150 Dodge Bonus: 132, Parry Bonus: 150
You are wanted by the following groups: Andor
Your abilities are: Str: 12, Int: 16, Wis: 0, Dex: 20, Con: 19
You have died 36 times, 30 times to other players, 6 times to monsters, and killed 24 other worthy players.
Your armor absorbs 2% damage on average.
You are affected by:
SNEAK
NO QUIT
NOTICE

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Inercia narrates, 'yea, i got that'

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>
peer nicotine
You peer intently at *Nicotine*.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Hurt>

Inercia tries to blast *Nicotine*'s head, but he dodges the attack.
You pierce *Nicotine*'s arms very hard.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s body, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your body, but you parry the attack.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Wounded>

Inercia panics, and attempts to flee!

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Wounded>

Nicotine's shield reflects the sunlight, momentarily blinding you!
You yell, 'Arrrgh!'
Inercia leaves north, riding a black warhorse.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Wounded>
exa nicotine
*Nicotine* has quite a few wounds.

*Nicotine* is using:
<held> a small red pouch
<worn around neck> a shimmering pendant of heartstone
<worn around neck> a shimmering pendant of heartstone
<worn in right ear> a small diamond earring
<worn in left ear> a small diamond earring
<worn on head> a golden silk turban
<worn about body> a silver lined black cloak with a swooping hawk brooch
<worn on body> a worn animal hide vest
<worn on shoulders> golden knots of rank
<worn on arms> a pair of dark fur sleeves
<worn about waist> a swordsman's belt
<worn around wrist> a spiraled bracelet of cuendillar
<worn around wrist> a spiraled bracelet of cuendillar
<worn on hands> a pair of gloves embroidered with gold
<worn on finger> a bright red heartstone ring
<worn on finger> a bright red heartstone ring
<wielded> Cancer, the deadly knife of darkness
<worn as shield> a reflective onyx shield
<worn on legs> a pair of dark cloth leggings
<worn on feet> a pair of gold-fringed boots

You attempt to peek at his inventory:
You can't see anything.

HP:Wounded MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Wounded>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s feet, but he dodges the attack.
You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s legs, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your arms, but you parry the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your body very hard.

HP:Battered MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Wounded>

Inercia has arrived from the north, riding a black warhorse.

HP:Battered MV:Fresh - Nicotine: Wounded>

You try to pierce *Nicotine*'s hands, but he parries the attack.
*Nicotine* pierces your shoulders into bloody fragments!
*Nicotine* tries to pierce your arms, but you parry the attack.

Kiril · Post by **Kiril** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:21 pm

Any thoughts?

Lithium · Post by **Lithium** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:35 pm

Looks fine to me, he's a master in a full kit, he should be beating you. One option you have, although its a hassle, is you can carry a set of parry trinkets with you for when you need to avoid getting hit.

Kiril · Post by **Kiril** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:41 pm

And the previous post?

Lithium · Post by **Lithium** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:05 pm

That idea's not bad, but it would depend heavily on the intervals for interrupting the timer. For example, I don't think it should ever beat out an air scythe. Trying to balance a skill like that would take a lot of testing, and even then it could end up being too good.

Kiril · Post by **Kiril** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:27 pm

Yeah. The full timer could possibly be 13 pulses long--after the third pulse you can attempt to launch your attack(stabbing before third pulse would return some sort of message entailing you were not ready). Each pulse of the timer will allow a larger percentage of the weapon's stab damage to be dealt upon a successful landing:

(= * +)Fails (-)20% (=)30% (%)40% (=)50% (-)60% (+)70% (*)80% (=)90% (%)100% (=)Automatic kill/Always lands{You wouldn't have to enter the command here, as this is the end of the timer}

Aj · Post by Aj » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:05 pm

I've been pushing for this for years, modify kick to stop targets actions but increase % chance of landing vs increased def so absers don't get nurfed. This would be perfect for thieves vs channies and thieves vs dodge bashers. The landing rate would have to be lowered a bit to balance it.

Kiril · Post by **Kiril** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:17 am

Aj wrote:I've been pushing for this for years, modify kick to stop targets actions but increase % chance of landing vs increased def so absers don't get nurfed. This would be perfect for thieves vs channies and thieves vs dodge bashers. The landing rate would have to be lowered a bit to balance it.

In the case of channelers vs thieves, the thief kicking to stop weaves would just result in a stalemate. And are you saying make kick cancel bash?

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:23 am

Kick messing up bash timers would be the dumbest idea ever!

Aj · Post by Aj » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:56 am

kick interupting bash timer on dodge bashers only, do you guys even bother reading before posting?

Kiril · Post by **Kiril** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:12 pm

Aj wrote:kick interupting bash timer on dodge bashers only, do you guys even bother reading before posting?

I don't think that is possible.

Lithium · Post by **Lithium** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:47 pm

Sure it is. If you read his original post, he said he wanted kick to land more frequently against characters with a higher defense. Sounds like a solid idea to me.

Chase · Post by **Chase** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:30 pm

Making kick stop bash vs a defense char would destroy combo all together. As it is, combo get hit while unbashed sometimes (which is fine), but having kick stop timer would make combo bash useless. A thief could just kick and melee the char to death. Thieves should be able to just finish off their target once they land a stab. They shouldnt be able to stand in pk and fight head to head..

Aj · Post by Aj » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:47 pm

So rather than

kick
-+-+

do defense check of target

it should be

kick
-+-+

do db check of target

landing % could be somewhere around

DB landing %
_____________________________________
70 05
75 10
80 15
85 20
90 25
95 30
100 35
105 40
110 45
115 50
120 55
125 60
130 65

Combo users having low db would not be affected much by this change but dodge bashers and channies would get bashes and weaves interrupted on %.