equipment weight

[Kathryn]

Can we look at the weight of equipment and adjust it accordingly?

heartstone rings weigh .4 lbs.
cuendillar bracelets weigh .4 lbs
white hat weighs .1 lbs
dark leggings weigh .5 lbs
animal vest weighs 2.5 lbs.
diamond earrings weigh .1 lbs.
sword gloves weigh .1 lbs.
cuendillar necklaces weigh .9 lbs.


Some of these weights are fine... but seriously? .4 lbs for a ring? .4 for a bracelet? Almost a whole pound for a necklace?

I think that some of these weights need to be adjusted. In truth, light clothing will never weigh that much. Just like some combo gear weighs far too much, and some abs gear is far too heavy.

All trinks should weigh .1 lbs or .2 MAX for larger trinkets or abs trinkets. .4 and .9 is far too much. How long would you go around wearing 2 pounds of necklaces and a pound of rings and a pound of bracelets?

What about abs gear? a lot of it is really just over the top on weight. Same with combo, so can we take a closer look at this?

[Alder]

Those weights sound relatively accurate as far as realism goes, if anything some of them are too light.

[Kathryn]

Really? so right now i'm dressed in pants. and a tshirt, and a polo shirt. I also have on underwear. and my class ring. And a watch. And the necklace my little brother gave me. I have on a hat. and socks. And shoes. My total clothing weight? probably about 6 lbs MAX.

Those weights are not accurate at ALL according to realism. 22 lbs is the total weight of dodge set with shield and staff. That is quite simply too much.

And look at the weight of an abs set. It's a bit over the top.

[Alder]

Modern clothing and medieval (relatively close to Wheel of Time clothing I'd say) are very different, the latter being much heavier.

[Kathryn]

I'm aware of this Alder. But I also know that even back then people wearing what we in the mud call 'dodge' didn't walk around in 22 pounds of clothing. On the contrary it was usually spun of cotton, and made to be rather light and airy especially in the summertime so that they could withstand the heat. And in the winter they roughspun cotton with other elements in order to get a heavier and warmer fabric. But never in any case did they walk around in TWENTY TWO pounds of clothing.

You can claim to say it's 'normal realistically' all you want. Maybe instead you should just say, hey, we want dodge to have a larger malus and that's why we are making you wear such heavy gear. Or hey, maybe we want absers to have less OB, and so you have to wear unrealistically heavy gear. I could accept that just fine. But don't pretend you really think it's 'accurate' just to hide up the fact that you want it this way to 'balance' classes.

[Lamgwin]

22 lbs is the total weight of dodge set with shield and staff.

I'm aware of this Alder. But I also know that even back then people wearing what we in the mud call 'dodge' didn't walk around in 22 pounds of clothing.

If you're going to use a number as evidence, and that number is comprised of clothing plus a big shield and a staff, then you can't use that number without also mentioning the shield and staff. Deceptive beast, you are.

[Lamgwin]

As an aside, I believe most shields dating back to warfare among the ancient Greeks and Romans, through the Medieval period, were mostly between 5-20 pounds. Of course, the different weights and materials would provide different levels of strength and movement.

[Kathryn]

I was wondering when you were going to pipe in, Lamgwin. I knew you would at one point or another. That would have been an great deception on my part, had you not pointed it out. I hate you

The truth is, I simply neglected to compensate for it in my last post. So take out the weight of my staff and my shield (8 lbs) and you still have 14 pounds. So let's use that number. 14. Great. Okay so what are you wearing right now lamgwin, and how much does it weigh? I highly doubt it even comes NEAR the 14 pound mark even if you happen to have on a heavy coat and three pairs of pants.

Look at individual item weight, and tell me if you really think it is accurate.

[Kathryn]

As an aside, I believe most shields dating back to warfare among the ancient Greeks and Romans, through the Medieval period, were mostly between 5-20 pounds. Of course, the different weights and materials would provide different levels of strength and movement.

The average shield weight for heavy roman infantry was about 12 pounds. That would be what we consider 'abs' in the mud world. The average shield weight of light infantry (think gladiators bucklers) was about 4 pounds. They were not very large and were not very effective against hard blows, but rather were designed to be used by light, agile fighters when they in turn were fighting light, agile fighters.

[Kathryn]

By the way, I used roman weights as a comparison since you were using roman era stats. The stats I am referring to are actually 'medieval' and are significantly more advanced than roman era arms. Many shields in the medieval era were extremely light, as little as three pounds, while still providing exceptional protection to the bearer.

So if you want to compare weapon and armor weights, you have to choose an era. I would prefer you choose the era that I was referring to instead of randomly picking one. So lets do that from now on, ok?

[Lamgwin]

lolz, I haven't read the books in a long, long time and I don't remember exactly what their clothing was like, hence using numbers from a long span of years, around 2000 years actually.

And on to my own personal clothing, I don't seem to be wearing a pair of necklaces and earrings, nor a pair of rings and bracelets, nor am I wearing gloves, a hat, a belt. I'm not wearing a cloak, nor a pair of sleeves on top, or underneath, my shirt.

[Lamgwin]

Also, good sir, if you wish to argue on the grounds of realism, I propose that when you use the skill shield block (with your 4 pound shield), and I bring down my 19 pound hammer on it, it smashes through the shield, hits you in the face, and you die instantly, or at least drown in the blood leaking out of your ruined face. Oh how I do love this realism game, it is a mighty fine way to pass the time.

[Racyn]

And on to my own personal clothing, I don't seem to be wearing a pair of necklaces and earrings, nor a pair of rings and bracelets, nor am I wearing gloves, a hat, a belt. I'm not wearing a cloak, nor a pair of sleeves on top, or underneath, my shirt.

r u waring a dildo in ur bung hole

[Lamgwin]

Silly Racyn, did you forget that you asked to borrow my dildo and still have it in your possession?

[Racyn]

LOL thats cuz my shank is 2 big 4 ur behin, so i need sumthing smalr

[Kathryn]

At least you are honest. I can deal with that. But lets suppose you were wearing two 'gangster style' gold necklaces. how much do you think that would be? a few silver or gold links wrapped around your neck right now. Would it be half a pound you think? Oh, less, you say? that's what I thought. What about class rings? Those are about the biggest and heaviest rings that exist right now that people wear. How much would two of them weigh?

Let us also suppose that you wear a nice rolex wrist watch. That would be about the equivalent weight of a bracelet, no? Multiply that times two. Lets pick out the biggest earrings you can imagine. Gypsy's come to mind. How heavy are two of their earrings?

Think realistically with me right now. The average weight of a mounted knights armor and weapon and shield was about 52 pounds, with their shields comprising an average of eleven pounds of that weight. (This is assuming they were equipped for a joust.)

So since we are all being realistic here, tell me how the kinslayermud equipment weights are 'accurate realistically'

[Kathryn]

Also, good sir, if you wish to argue on the grounds of realism, I propose that when you use the skill shield block (with your 4 pound shield), and I bring down my 19 pound hammer on it, it smashes through the shield, hits you in the face, and you die instantly, or at least drown in the blood leaking out of your ruined face. Oh how I do love this realism game, it is a mighty fine way to pass the time.

Think of shield block as a stance that's preparing to deflect an attack. Not as just some person raising a big board over their head and taking the full force of the blow. That's not what shield block is.

And regardless of that, shield block has very real, very serious maluses to the user. I know because i use it quite frequently. It was definitely changed from what it used to be, and now it can only be used sparingly and wisely. If you are a dodger fighting more than one basher and you are solo, shield block will only get you killed. Stat a dodger and use it regularly against a heavy basher and tell me there are no maluses.

[Lamgwin]

I haven't made any claims about the weight of the gear being realistic or not. I merely pointed out that you used a weight that included a shield and a staff, then later used that weight to represent just the dodge equipment. I don't know how much necklaces weigh, nor rings, nor earrings, nor bracelets. I don't really know what to guess for their weight either. Seeing as how I have little practice, and even less of a need to be able to accurately guess the weight of an item after holding, seeing it, or even reading it on a text-based game, I don't think I'd throw numbers out there, for they would probably be wrong.

All I did was throw out a range of weight for shields spanning from Greek warfare through the Medieval ages. Ah yes, forgive me for trying to moderate a disagreement between two people, and then be accused of supporting one side over the other.

[Lamgwin]

Also, good sir, if you wish to argue on the grounds of realism, I propose that when you use the skill shield block (with your 4 pound shield), and I bring down my 19 pound hammer on it, it smashes through the shield, hits you in the face, and you die instantly, or at least drown in the blood leaking out of your ruined face. Oh how I do love this realism game, it is a mighty fine way to pass the time.

Think of shield block as a stance that's preparing to deflect an attack. Not as just some person raising a big board over their head and taking the full force of the blow. That's not what shield block is.

And regardless of that, shield block has very real, very serious maluses to the user. I know because i use it quite frequently. It was definitely changed from what it used to be, and now it can only be used sparingly and wisely. If you are a dodger fighting more than one basher and you are solo, shield block will only get you killed. Stat a dodger and use it regularly against a heavy basher and tell me there are no maluses.

It appears you've done it again. Where did I say that shield block has no maluses? I simply showed how ridiculous your argument of realism is for trying to balance a game based off of a book. Can you show me any witches running around throwing fireballs out of their ass? Can you show me trollocs? Can you explain to me how someone can take multiple hits to the head with an axe, or a sword, which results in bloody fragments? Arguing from realism is a pointless attempt to try and enact lower weights on dodge gear, so you have higher defense. Why don't you try and argue more directly, that being you think dodge bonus and parry bonus should be higher? Stop trying to hide behind the pathetic argument of realism, it isn't fooling anyone.

[Kathryn]

I never tried to argue that game mechanics should be made realistic. If it was made realistic, then you would die nearly instantly every time you engaged me.

My argument is based off of this: That this game is based off of a series of popular books, which in turn are at their core based off of a very definitive era. That era is the medieval ages. While we should never attempt to make actual combat realistic because we would have a totally skewed and unbalanced system, we should still attempt to make the basics of the game as realistic as possible.

My argument doesn't help just me, Lamgwin. I came into the argument realizing full well that if the immortals decided to change equipment weights then it would mean that I go into a fight knowing you're going to have a higher offensive bonus than you have had in the past. I'm not arguing to just up dodge at all. I'm arguing to actually have a real reason to make equipment weigh a certain amount. What is 2 db to me? I'll still eat almost the same amount of bashes, I will still die in two bashes. The main difference is that you may be able to hit me more often than you did previously while i'm not bashed. In turn, I may get a slightly increased chance of dodging those bashes you will roll against me.

Adjusting equipment weight doesn't up dodge or down abs or anything of the sort. The same balance that we have right now will be retained. I was simply proposing an equal adjusting of equipment across the board. If you choose to claim that I am being nothing but self serving then that is your prerogative.

[Lamgwin]

Why do we assume that their world is exactly like ours except for the one power? Can their metals not weigh more than ours? Can their world not have slightly different physical laws than ours? The whole point of saying don't base it on realism is that we can't simply compare our world to theirs. We can't know if these worlds are the exact same, or their level of difference. Were the weights of their jewels written upon the pages? If not, who gets to decide their weights? The creator of this game? One of its players? Based off our own world? This is the problem with making the realism argument, whether you're doing it to up dodge, or to keep the balance the same, it doesn't matter.

[Kathryn]

It goes back to what I said previously Lamgwin. That this world is based off of books which are based off of a very real era. That's the whole basis of my argument. I realize that you are intelligent to understand the true definition of argument so I will not go into details on that. Rather I will just simply say, I have stated my argument, and your statements are welcome in turn.

[Lamgwin]

You didn't understand my last post.

[Kathryn]

I think I did but if I didn't please tell me. Maybe I should clarify. I'm basing everything off of a tangible medieval world. That includes blacksmiths, armories, jewelers and every other sort of merchant. I'm excluding any fantastical technologies they may have come up with, which seems to me to be the exact thing Robert Jordan was doing. He eluded to the fact that they were indeed less advanced than their predecessors due to some world war tragedy, yet he very firmly stuck to one specific era. I am simply taking the tangible things from said era and attempting to apply them to this game now, which is how I have always looked at it. If there is some misguided concept in that then so be it, and point it out. I am willing to argue my point, but I am not wanting to argue pointlessly.

[Lamgwin]

The thing that I'm trying to point out is that you're making assumptions. You're making assumptions that Robert Jordan intended for the WOT world to be -exactly- like ours except for the one power, and the various mythical beings. You're assuming Robert Jordan is basing his world off of the Medieval period, which spanned 1000 years. You used Roman shields as an example, but the Roman empire isn't considered as part of the Medieval ages. You're assuming that all things in the WOT world, that being the weight of clothes, metal, etc, is exactly the same as our own. I don't recall Robert Jordan ever going over any of this. My point being, we can't know exactly what is the same in both worlds. So making comparison between the weight of rings in our world, to the comparison of the weight of rings in their world is pointless.