Who killed dodge?

[Nyoga]

Too easily abused. Way too easily. Get one guy to stay engaged, everyone else constantly flee/re-engage. Way OP

[Evilina]

Since I have been playing abs on an alt I am beginning to see both sides to the argument of "abs is op, dodge is op."

I think I might of found an interesting solution which might or might not work but is worth a test trial, removed bash dmg multiplier and increase bash rate for absers or at least abs weapons and certain uniques.

Let's try this for a week and use the player feed back to see if this is a viable solution to the inbalance or not.

With an increased chance of landing a bash I do believe certain skills would need to be taken into consideration such as kick, pstrike, bows, etc.

[Lyrak]

I think the point is that people who play dodge currently don't think bash needs to be upped at all. I get fragged unbashed anyway...

[Evilina]

Dodgers never want bash uppped and being hit through defense is not a bash issue but an issue of Fogel imping the 5% thing.

[Lamgwin]

Good work on the 5% chance of hitting no matter what, Fogel. Don't let all these retarded ass clowns make you doubt its value!

[Evilina]

well said by the biased abser

[Lyrak]

Well its also the issue of having certain op weapons toss dodge aside like a wet rag. It should take 20 game rounds for the 5% to hit through, right? I'm seeing a lot more frequent hits than that.

[Barf]

It seems that only ls masters play now, I can't out bash their weapons, or do as much damage. therefore for me to kill them I either have to play fleeish, or use mobs. Both of which are lame. How about we get a weapon with +1 pt at rank 5-6 then another pt when we master?

[Lyrak]

I say make shield block a rank 6 bonus and set it to where it actually works.

[Lyrak]

Dodgers never want bash uppped and being hit through defense is not a bash issue but an issue of Fogel imping the 5% thing.

A Crumbling Gatekeep
A cracked road of bricks and stones leads to a large gate of human skulls, from
within the Trolloc city. To the north, a large watchtower rises up high,
searching for any kind of enemy. The massive gate of bone opens only at night,
and is guarded by an elite fist of trollocs. The area to the south of the gate
is clear for easy entrance to the city.
[ Exits: n e s w ]
North: *Tamira* is standing here, riding a black warhorse.
East : A trolloc of the Dhjin'nen tribe stands here.
South: The gate obstructs your view.
West : An elite guard of Djevik Ba is standing here on patrol.
Barf the Puke Slayer is standing here.
A huge trolloc is here, looking for something to smash.
A huge trolloc is here, looking for something to smash.
A huge trolloc is here, looking for something to smash.
A huge trolloc is here, looking for something to smash.
A trolloc gatekeeper is standing here.

HP:Healthy MV:Fresh >
Barf narrates, 'k'

HP:Healthy MV:Fresh >
Barf narrates, 'hitting'

HP:Healthy MV:Fresh >
Barf leaves north.
You follow Barf.
A Stony Paved Road
Cracked and crumbling cobble stone makes its way through the center of the city
here. Intersperced between the broken stones are skulls of various creatures.
To the north a decrepit watch tower rises high into the air, guarded by many
elite trolloc warriors. The skull gate stands due south, the only way in and
out of this filthy city.
[ Exits: n s ]
South: A huge trolloc is here, looking for something to smash.
The corpse of a snarling trolloc is lying here.
Barf the Puke Slayer is standing here.
*Tamira* is standing here, riding a black warhorse.
*Raiden* is standing here, riding a black warhorse.

HP:Healthy MV:Excellent >
scan n
*Raiden* tries to stab your arms, but misses.

HP:Healthy MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
No way! You're fighting for your life!
*Tamira* tries to thrash Barf's head, but misses.

HP:Healthy MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
You try to pierce *Raiden*'s body, but miss.
You try to pierce *Raiden*'s head, but miss.

HP:Healthy MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf sends *Tamira* sprawling with a powerful bash!

HP:Healthy MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Raiden* sends you sprawling with a powerful bash! ...1/1 bashes land
HP:Scratched MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf tries to slash *Tamira*'s arms, but she parries the attack.
*Raiden* stabs your arms into bloody fragments!
Barf narrates, 'bashed tam'

HP:Scratched MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf narrates, 'damn it'

HP:Scratched MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
You step to the side as *Raiden* clumsily attempts to strike you.

HP:Scratched MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf slashes *Tamira*'s hands into bloody fragments!
*Raiden* stabs your feet into bloody fragments!

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
narr is there where i get trashed by raiden? :p again
You narrate, 'is this where i get trashed by raiden? :p again'

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
You step to the side as *Raiden* clumsily attempts to strike you.

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
You try to pierce *Raiden*'s legs, but miss.
You try to pierce *Raiden*'s body, but miss.
*Raiden* tries to stab your arms, but misses.

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf avoids being bashed by *Tamira* who loses her balance and falls!
Barf sends *Tamira* sprawling with a powerful bash!

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
shie
You raise your shield and brace yourself in preparation for an oncoming attack.

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
= = Barf slashes *Tamira*'s hands into bloody fragments!

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>

* *Raiden* sends you sprawling with a powerful bash! ...2/2 bashes land

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf narrates, 'yeah'

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf slashes *Tamira*'s waist into bloody fragments!

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf narrates, 'holy crap'

HP:Hurt MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Raiden*'s sudden attack hits you before you can dodge out of the way.

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Raiden* stabs your legs into bloody fragments!

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf avoids being bashed by *Tamira* who loses her balance and falls!

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf sends *Tamira* sprawling with a powerful bash!

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf narrates, 'he doesn't land this much on me'

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
You step to the side as *Raiden* clumsily attempts to strike you.

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf slashes *Tamira*'s shoulders into bloody fragments!
You try to pierce *Raiden*'s legs, but miss.
You try to pierce *Raiden*'s feet, but miss.
*Raiden* tries to stab your legs, but misses.

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
narr im off this
You narrate, 'im off this'

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf narrates, 'k'

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
f
You panic and attempt to flee!

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
Barf slashes *Tamira*'s head very hard.

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Raiden* sends you sprawling with a powerful bash! ...3/3 bashes land

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Tamira* hefts her shield and takes up a defensive stance.

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Raiden* stabs your arms into bloody fragments!

HP:Wounded MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Raiden*'s sudden attack hits you before you can dodge out of the way...Wasn't bashed pstrike supposed to have been downed?

HP:Battered MV:Excellent - Raiden: Scratched>
*Raiden* stabs your shoulders into bloody fragments!

--------------
You are a 29 year old male trolloc thief.
Your mood is currently: Wimpy
Your height is 6 feet, 9 inches, weight 223 pounds, weight carried 0.0 lbs, worn: 23.5 lbs.
Offensive Bonus: 166 Dodge Bonus: 135, Parry Bonus: 177
Your abilities are: Str: 18, Int: 17, Wis: 17, Dex: 20, Con: 19
You have died 13 times, 7 times to other players, 6 times to monsters, and killed 43 other worthy players.
Your armor absorbs 1% damage on average.
You are affected by:

Dodge is fubared, Evilina. All you need is some OB. Look at how Raiden is scratched in this fight and I'm batt. My melee did not land any...guess why? Because if I'm wimpy with 135 db and Im bashed 3/3 then wtf would I go brave only to have me miss anyway? Someone take a brief f*cking look at dodge and stop saying all this bullsh*t about 5% to explain the flaws. Its just one of the many.

If dodge is just a-ok then WTF am I getting bashed like a f*cking abser in a complete dodge set?

Its not bad enough that db-based combo avoids sblades, making rogue skills like pstrike a joke, but now we have full dodgers who not only are impossible to hit but can sit you down 3/3.

Is this supposed to be "balanced"?

[Fogel]

It's possible the nerf to shield block was a little too much. Also note that you should always have a higher chance of avoiding a bash when you don't use it, which is intended.

As for master bonuses, the weapon bonuses are roughly equivalent to one extra bash per fight. This is something you should be able to overcome with a little luck or by simply outplaying them.

[Barf]

I would disagree with the master bonuses. I land maybe at tops 4/10 on raiden. He lands 5/10+ on me and does more damage per bash. And it isn't only raiden, any master weapon bashes use dodgers now. Even non masters have a good chance of landing when in counts. The way it is now there is no way for me to beat him in straight up melee/bash w/o fleeing a ton or using at least 1-2 mobs. I wouldn't say that dodge needs to be changed dramatically or that weapons need to be killed. Just that 135+db shouldn't be getting bashed so much or hit so much unbashed. Raidens master should be hitting through that though, that has sick ob

[Lyrak]

Without some melee capabilities vs defense this char relies entirely on stab/mobs. Shield block was actually the only way I could melee-hit someone in combo or defense normally. Not so great when it comes to a group fight, but then I have been able to stab numbers down in the past.

And Fogel, its difficult to "outplay" someone who has enough def to dodge an entire patty while they frag through the best def and bash it well over half the time. Plus this guy wants you to hit on his patties! The only way for me to beat any other char with some ob is to run and stab or rely on their own bravado to kill them. If they bash then it looks like I have to high tail it. Even mobs are not enough when the person is dodge. The other person has to make a serious error to lose.

[Lyrak]

I have no problem with master bonuses, but if a spear master is doing this, I don't want to think about one based off of steel bound club! I thought dodge weapons with instakill abilities (aka spears/lances) were supposed to be balanced by lower weight, def and/or ob. I've had mahogany lance bounce off my full dodge over 66% of the time. Blademasters not only get a free bash but can use postures, which ups their bash/melee.

[Evilina]

I will reiterate what I have already said for you barf, abs bash seems balanced. My alt has aol and he doesn't bash extremely well due to abs weight downing bash rating but dodgers don't have the issue of eq weight so they get defense and a nice bash rating now combine this with master bonuses and in Raidens case posture bonuses plus increased ob from riding and you have a bashing machine that doesn't eat to many bashes.

lastly factor in the 5% breaking of defense.

[Fogel]

A couple things:

1) From what I've gathered over the past few weeks, it sounds like swords ended up a little too strong after the weapon changes. They will be tweaked down slightly.

2) Shield Block will likely be buffed back up, but instead nerfed for high pb, which seems to be where the issues were.

I appreciate the feedback so far. Just stay patient: the term "balance" implies going back and forth between two opposing forces until both are equal. Eventually we'll get there, but don't expect it to happen overnight.

[Chase]

Fogel notice hes spears not swords But yes, swords need some slight tweakage down.

[Evilina]

Spears fogel spears, damn no wonder shit isn't balanced you cant read

[Fogel]

I don't think one case where a master Blademaster is bashing someone through an over-nerfed Shield Block proves anything about spears.

[Barf]

he pulls top ob brave, and yeah, abs bash is unbalanced, I land more on full dodge than I ever did in abs.

[Barf]

ok, after more pk, dodge sucks, it cannot compete, it is bashed by any comboer (master or non master) it has no abs, so one bash hurts like hell. pb does nothing anyway so even unbashed with the 5% thing anyone can hit anyone unbashed. So, post if you agree with what I am saying.

Oh and db doesn't help dodge pk hits at all.

[Fogel]

http://www.kinslayermud.org/forums/view ... f=2&t=4875

[Barf]

That won't help because our bashing weapons were downed, so we won't have anywhere near as much of a chance of bashing dodgers, and light comboers dodge like 6/10 of my bashes.

[Lamgwin]

It's quite amusing and entertaining just how stupid a lot of you are. Some of you seem to lack the ability to understand even basic concepts, both in terms of pk balance and arguing.

And I'll say this once more. Giving masters pk bonuses is a stupid, stupid idea/concept.

[Barf]

Ok, master bonuses would be nice, but (Now that I have actually though before I post ) Dodge still does suck, but dodge also has the ability to outplay every other setup if you bash.