Who killed dodge?

[Adeline]

What the **** has happened to dodge? I get hit unbashed as frequently as I parry/dodge. I've noticed tons of stuff has been changed recently. Did someone go and screw around with defense again?

Why do we feel the need to compulsively change the very fundamentals of the game? Excuse me as I go back to WoT.

[Chase]

I thought it was upped...?

[Adeline]

Random % of hitting no matter what is not what I would call "upping" dodge. What else has changed about it recently?

[Chase]

But theres also the balance that theres a random 5% you block no matter what. As in I have had a bashed player with 3 on him parry me before.

[Evilina]

but the 5% of getting hit or blocking is not necessary, that is why absers have absorbtion and dodgers/ comboers have db/pb. The 5% thing was a quick fix cause fogel apparently couldn't find a good balance but the sad thing is Lamgwins imm had shit pretty well balanced (which I didn't realize until fogel tweaked it all) and now everything is out of whack epsecially when you take into consideration all the new crap that cancels timers like bows, kick, pstrike, etc.

[Lyrak]

I thought it was upped...?

Where are you getting this information? Either post something substantitive like a forum post link or a quote or stop making stuff up.

The bottom line: 2 bashers can take out any dodger, under 5 mobs of support. 3 mobs are enough to deter a solo person, but hardly thanks to the new db combo which abuses the fact that pb might as well stand for "pansy bonus" and def seems to be based on db when bashed.

[Cifon]

2 bashers can take out any dodger, under 5 mobs of support

A dodger doesn't autowin 2v1? How terribly unbalanced!

[Lyrak]

Try it sometime. Put a Chase and a Tiberius vs. the original poster. Its not just the obvious difference in a participant, Cifon. Its the amazing speed in which that dodger goes down. If 1 bash takes me to wounded, and fleeing the pair makes me eat bash after bash that my dodge does little to avoid, you do math.

[Lyrak]

And remember the rest of the post: I had to include the mobs in the argument because 1 remort can hit through my def enough to kill me on 3 supporting mobs. Another problem that will likely be misconstrued by a mud that hand holds bashers.

[Cifon]

Sadly I've left my math at home, but here's some observations that are backed up just as well as any other assertion in this thread: the few PK sessions I've had in the past month have been as a thief, and in every one of them I've been impressed by how much my melee capabiltiies have improved over the past few months. Dodge seems really powerful 1v1, and still seems viable for hit and run tactics. The tradeoff is that if you get a couple people on you and you stick around to get bashed, you are going to get hurt. It even hurts less than it did previously: the weapon revamp seems to have lowered the damage output from a lot of the top end bashing weapons.

I could be completely off base with this, but then again, so could every other claim about dodge that isn't backed up with hard data.

[Lyrak]

Testing is a good thing. Problem is my tester, Barf is hardly ever on. I just go by what I notice in everyday pk. I'll try to get Raiden to log a session and you'll see how that yew spear does vs my perfect dodge set.

You're right though - rogues top out in db but not pb, the latter of which is better for 1v1. I survive hit and run, but then endure complaints that Im being a "fleebie".

[Adeline]

Look, this MUD rarely sees large group pk. I can live with the high landing rate of bashes. What I can't live with is frequently being hit through my defense.

There should never exist any weapon on any character that will consistently break the defense of unbashed full dodge. If dodge gets bashed, then you should get off two incredibly painful frags.

The entire point of dodge is nullified if I'm getting hit unbashed in 1v1.

[Chase]

I thought it was upped...?

Where are you getting this information? Either post something substantitive like a forum post link or a quote or stop making stuff up.

The bottom line: 2 bashers can take out any dodger, under 5 mobs of support. 3 mobs are enough to deter a solo person, but hardly thanks to the new db combo which abuses the fact that pb might as well stand for "pansy bonus" and def seems to be based on db when bashed.

By your line of thinking you didn't post anything "substantive." Fogel often talks to me and a few other players who have pked a lot here and who want this thing balanced and thats how he figured out that under 110 db was worthless so it was judged accordingly. So actually, yes. Dodge was upped some. Next time I will be sure to cite my information for you.

As for the new db combo, I think it seems pretty strong because originally comboers were maxing out pb at 240 pb. While this should be nice, from my experience anything over 220+ pb is worthless and really doesn't help. Therefore, it makes sense to either add more abs % or exchange 20-35 pb for 15-20 db, which is what most people did. So really, its just characters maximizing their potential.

[Barf]

I'm up for testing in a 130 db kit, have like 170 pb, oh, and bash is way high atm, bashed summer like 60% when she was in at least 120+ db with a glittering longsword.

[Evilina]

Barf, as a dodge basher you cant judge abs bash because you are wearing limited weight compared to an abser which increases your bash rating which in turn affects bash faceoffs of absers vs dodgers.

[Summer]

Well Barf is right, I was rocking 120 db full dodge trinks. And he was fragging me unbashed, just wasnt fair! I lost 2 fights against Barf and then i got grumpy i didnt wanna pk no more and rented. I hate how I have to change my set up, I dont want to be combo or abs I wanna be dodge!

[Evilina]

Summer what you just described would be the affect of the 5% hitting through any defense which makes dodge vs abs unbalanced.

I still say if an abser can hit through maxed def at 5% then dodgers should be allowed to hit through abs at 5%.

atm I don't have an issue with how often or limited an abser can land a bash on a dodger, my issue is with skills that cancel bash timers on absers almost 100% of the time and nullify their bashing ability completely. why do timer cancelling skills such as kick, bows, pstrike etc target absers better than dodgers when an abers primary skill is bash?

btw Chase last post was 100% accurate.

[Lyrak]

By your line of thinking you didn't post anything "substantive."

Lets not get confused here. Did I post that dodge was upped without disclosing my inside source? I merely probed for more information to back up what looked like a statement of fact. I posted observations, not claims that I knew whether dodge had been upped or downed.

Fogel often talks to me and a few other players who have pked a lot here and who want this thing balanced and thats how he figured out that under 110 db was worthless so it was judged accordingly. So actually, yes. Dodge was upped some. Next time I will be sure to cite my information for you.

Since Fogel didn't post anything about dodge and 110 db as far as I can find, you are the first person to let me know about this change.

However, unless its Fogel speaking it doesn't add much to the discussion. How was it upped exactly? When? Was it downed later, or upped again? Does it affect all characters, or just those who would probably top out around 110, like channies? Do you see where I'm going with this?

As for the new db combo, I think it seems pretty strong because originally comboers were maxing out pb at 240 pb. While this should be nice, from my experience anything over 220+ pb is worthless and really doesn't help. Therefore, it makes sense to either add more abs % or exchange 20-35 pb for 15-20 db, which is what most people did. So really, its just characters maximizing their potential.

The system is geared towards db, because pb isnt effective after a certain point, especially when taking bash into account. Barf and I tested a 290 pb kit and it was hit bashed at least 1/2 of the time. For the purposes of everyday play, I could not notice a difference between 190 pb and 290 pb when bashed.

[Fogel]

These replies are going to be out of order, as I'm going through the thread backwards.

Since Fogel didn't post anything about dodge and 110 db as far as I can find, you are the first person to let me know about this change.

http://www.kinslayermud.org/forums/view ... f=2&t=4503 . Some day in the future I'll try to set up wiki pages documenting everything combat related, but for now you'll need to become better acquainted with the Announcements forum.

The system is geared towards db, because pb isnt effective after a certain point, especially when taking bash into account. Barf and I tested a 290 pb kit and it was hit bashed at least 1/2 of the time. For the purposes of everyday play, I could not notice a difference between 190 pb and 290 pb when bashed.

There is no hard cap for either db or pb. When I have time and am not at work, I can throw some numbers at you to show how this stuff works. I'll also see about putting up some sort of test dummy you guys can use to get some data on your own. These discussions will be much smoother if I'm not the only one with a legitimate idea of what's going on.

I still say if an abser can hit through maxed def at 5% then dodgers should be allowed to hit through abs at 5%.

Absolutely not. The guaranteed hitting through defense is to keep players from becoming unkillable. You can call it the "Nicotine tax" if you'd like. As far as I'm aware, there is no such problem with absers becoming unkillable.

atm I don't have an issue with how often or limited an abser can land a bash on a dodger, my issue is with skills that cancel bash timers on absers almost 100% of the time and nullify their bashing ability completely. why do timer cancelling skills such as kick, bows, pstrike etc target absers better than dodgers when an abers primary skill is bash?

Precise Strike does not interrupt bashes: please don't post inaccurate statements in balance threads, as spreading misinformation just makes my job harder. Bows are already on my list of things to look at, and this is the first time I've heard a complaint because Kick cancels timers. If you think Kick needs to be looked at then I'll get to it eventually.

There should never exist any weapon on any character that will consistently break the defense of unbashed full dodge. If dodge gets bashed, then you should get off two incredibly painful frags.

The entire point of dodge is nullified if I'm getting hit unbashed in 1v1.

I collect data during PK frequently, and I have never seen a chance for one person to break full dodge higher than 15%. This is still less than once every 6 rounds. You also need to take into account that anyone with bash is going to be missing most unbashed combat rounds, and thus this stat is mostly irrelevant unless you are either not a basher or your opponent is running. Both of these cases require a chance to hit, as the goal is to prevent anyone from becoming either useless in a fight or unkillable.

[Lyrak]

Thanks Fogel. That will help me better grasp how the system actually works.

[Evilina]

Yeah my bad fogel I was thinking of how pstrike interrupts weaves.

[Nyoga]

I already knew about the low db issue being addressed as I was the one talking to Fogel about it at the time. Nananana

lol. but seriously guys, get facts before you pull shit out your ass (literally)

[Evilina]

The homosexual made an ass comment? uber gay!

[Adeline]

A crit dodger got that way because s/he was bashed. They're running, and trying not to eat an additional bash. If there's a 0% chance of being hit unbashed, and they're skillful enough to avoid eating a bash, then they live 100% of the time.

The solution: the engaging hit has a higher % chance of hitting than a normal melee hit. Not a 100% chance. Maybe 2-3x more likely. Blocks become effective, and so does chasing. No need for weird rules about 5% hits, etc.

Nonetheless, the probability of hitting the guy should still be low for three reasons. One, you have to make contact with the dodger fewer times. Two, the rolling bash is much more dangerous to the running dodger. It's supposed to be easier to escape in dodge, which is one of the caveats of the setup.

But the point remains that frequently hitting an unbashed dodger is unreasonable. It makes the setup unplayable, because you may as well be naked for the extra OB.

[Lyrak]

A crit dodger got that way because s/he was bashed. They're running, and trying not to eat an additional bash. If there's a 0% chance of being hit unbashed, and they're skillful enough to avoid eating a bash, then they live 100% of the time.

The solution: the engaging hit has a higher % chance of hitting than a normal melee hit. Not a 100% chance. Maybe 2-3x more likely. Blocks become effective, and so does chasing. No need for weird rules about 5% hits, etc.

Nonetheless, the probability of hitting the guy should still be low for three reasons. One, you have to make contact with the dodger fewer times. Two, the rolling bash is much more dangerous to the running dodger. It's supposed to be easier to escape in dodge, which is one of the caveats of the setup.

But the point remains that frequently hitting an unbashed dodger is unreasonable. It makes the setup unplayable, because you may as well be naked for the extra OB.

I don't want to sound negative, but I think your idea would just encourage a hit-flee tactic.