Vials

[Lamgwin]

It means you keep trying to make my argument look a different way so you can easily knock it down. It's called the strawman fallacy and is a no no if you wish to be logical.

[Otar]

Sure looks like you were saying that all humans should at all times be able to run down any trolloc.

Should I list the parts where you danced around or ignored my points?

[Lamgwin]

I never said that human groups should be able to run down trolloc groups at all times. I just said stop ignoring the fact that trollocs have a significant advantage in group pk in terms of group mobility.

Are you saying you want all humans to be horseless and incapable of catching any trollocs in pk ever? (see how stupid this is, what you keep doing)

[Otar]

hahahahahahahaha, I never said that you did say all humans should be to run down all trollocs at all times. i'm not ignoring 'facts' that trollocs have a significant advantage in group pk in terms of group mobility. I'm giving evidence that trolls don't in fact have a significant advantage in group pk in terms of group mobility.

[Lamgwin]

Sure looks like you were saying that all humans should at all times be able to run down any trolloc.

Yawn, insinuating that's what I mean is a no no.

Trollocs are proville in group pk. 100ish more base moves, 10 more moves regen in a tic if standing, etc.

[Otar]

Sure looks like you were saying that all humans should at all times be able to run down any trolloc.

Yawn, insinuating that's what I mean is a no no.

Trollocs are proville in group pk. 100ish more base moves, 10 more moves regen in a tic if standing, etc.

It's definitely an interpretation for what you typed, asking you if that's what you meant is definitely not a no no.

There you go again, dancing around and ignoring my points. Trolls have more moves and more regen, and humans have fucking horses. Lots of fucking horses.

[Lamgwin]

And the group being able to re-mount isn't viable in pk in a timely manner, allowing for trollocs to get in, or catch up, or whatever.

[Otar]

And the group being able to re-mount isn't viable in pk in a timely manner, allowing for trollocs to get in, or catch up, or whatever.

Remounting in group pk could be difficult, but only if most or all of the group remounts at the same time will the trolls be able to 'get in/catch up or whatever'. Humans have access to more moves/regen everywhere on the map. Falsely asserting that remounting in group pk 'isn't viable in a timely manner' doesn't change that.

[Lamgwin]

Falsely asserting that remounting in group pk 'isn't viable in a timely manner' doesn't change that.

It doesn't change it you cockass shitgay, but it certainly means trollocs have better group mobility.

[Otar]

If the pukes don't know the zone/where the horse loads are the ds have better mobility, otherwise ls still has better mobility.

[Lamgwin]

Nope.

[Otar]

Nope.

Wrong.

Looks like this argument isn't gonna go anywhere from here on out. But for the record, human mobility > trolloc mobility. Change vials back plz.

[Guest]

Lamgwin stop using semantics and rhetoric to deviate from the point. Its a typical strategy employed when someone begins to lose an argument. Ironicy, your just as guilty as him in this regard.

This is not to say you didn't put up a good fight, Otar has a much easier job simply because humans do have the clear advantage when it comes to mobility.

[Lamgwin]

You guys seem incapable of comprehending.

[Otar]

Lamgwin stop using semantics and rhetoric to deviate from the point. Its a typical strategy employed when someone begins to lose an argument. Ironicy, your just as guilty as him in this regard.

This is not to say you didn't put up a good fight, Otar has a much easier job simply because humans do have the clear advantage when it comes to mobility.

haha, yeah. It's much easier to argue when you're right.

Been a while since I was in a good argument.

[Lamgwin]

Lamgwin stop using semantics

This shows that you don't understand about why it's important to define words and stick to those definitions, along with clarifying etc. If you don't know the basic things you need to do in order to argue, then stop commenting on how the argument is going.

I'll say this once more: group mobility for trollocs is better than group mobility for humans.

[Otar]

Group mobility is better for trollocs only if the pukes don't know where the horse loads are.

[Chase]

Really, its that trollocs mvs are about equal to human moves. Humans can horse hop to great effect in LS lands, but are pretty much screwed in DS lands, especially when you consider horses will move after a while if you place them. Also when 7 or more humans are on, LS pretty much has no horses.

Vials were changed just so that you can't get 150+ mvs in one quaff. You still get the mvs, but it is just over time. This is because people would be able to run from caemlyn to gk in a quaff or two. It really doesn't affect DS that much, I feel like you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. You STILL get the mvs, just over a longer period of time.

[Otar]

It does shaft ds, a lot more than ls. Widening the mobility gap that ls had.

[Otar]

Really, its that trollocs mvs are about equal to human moves. Humans can horse hop to great effect in LS lands, but are pretty much screwed in DS lands, especially when you consider horses will move after a while if you place them. Also when 7 or more humans are on, LS pretty much has no horses.

The new horse loads in blight make it fairly easy for teh lsers to escape.

[Chase]

2 Greys in a spammable. I used it today and died for trying to get a horse thats worth 20 rooms.

[Otar]

There's loads in sw blight and e blight too.

[Guest]

there are 4 horseloads within 30 rooms of gk

(edited: ish +- 10. Don't want anyone jumping on my ass about a horselaod being 35 away)

[Sartak]

Everyone seems to be basing a trolloc's mobility on their base moves, but unless they've just ported down from the keep, they're usually not going to be at full moves when it comes time to run or chase down a human.

[Guest]

this is when lamgwin says but humans on horses rarely have full moves too.

then someone else says ya but humans have base moves to rely on and can horse hop.

then lamgwin says but there aren't any horses up north, which, if you read above has been proven to be a fallacy.
OR
trollocs have more better mobility in group pk.

someone then says yes, but chasing and running are not really group activities. If you're running from a group, you run solo. If you're chasing a crit guy as a group leader you don't wait for your group to catch up if they hag. In this regard, humans once again gain the advantage of horse hoping or being able to use their personal move pool to hunt down a trolloc.

this entire thread is just a circular 'argument' without much real, actual argumentation going on.

When you take the facts in their entirety and compare trolloc and human mobility you arrive at one conclution. Lets add a theoretical scenario, one thats plausible:

Senario a (both sides consist of 1 very good leader and a couple not so great players:
- 3 trollocs and 3 humans fight around FD. (fairly typical)
- At this point lets say the trollocs have about 190 mvs left. (i'm being generous, most of the time i'm running around at 150-130).
- 2 humans come up, Trollocs get smashed. Trollocs scatter. of the 3 one has a vial (the leader). The other 2 dont. (this is typical)
- Trollocs go Fd patty, using 60 moves. They are down to 100, tics up to 150.
- Humans hit and break them fairly fast. Scatter again and go north. Humans have a full base mv pool + about 50 mvs on their horse left. 50 + 160 = 210 total mvs for humans.
- Humans chase 2 dism and remount at gap patty. troll 1 hags out around south blight and dies. troll 2 goes to blight patty b/c he has no moves to make it in. He then barely makes it in becasue it tics. Once the humans catch him he has a 50/50 chance if he uses his moves well.

Humans who hag on their horse have 150 mvs to use to find another horse or get in (or make the kill in this case). Trollocs do not.

This routinely happens to me when i play ds. When ds get 'ganked' near fd if there is a good chaser. A lot of the time i'm forced to make a last stand at fd patty because i know i dont have the moves to get safe and i don't have a vial either. So i wait and hope that the humans wont kill be before the next couple of tics.

If the above situation happens tv/camelyn. Pfft. death for the 2 that dont have vials. (anyone that knows how to track will track and horse hop to them and then narrate their location to the people lagging behind who then horse hop a little slower (since they aren't as good) and evnetually get their to finish off the hag trolls).