Vials

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:31 am

Well, that's how this shit works here. Or so I thought. Downing troll mobility is definitely not the 'logical, right thing to do'. I think It's been pretty well established that there is a huge imbalance between human and troll mobility that is aggravated by the change to vials. If there's going to be a change to horses that balances this moves thing then put all in at the same time! Don't make the problem -worse- and then make it better if you can wait a bit and fix the whole thing. Horse hopping is definitely more of a get out of jail free card than vials were and are.

Heritage · Post by **Heritage** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:33 am

this is funny. everyone arguing and hasnt been a good pk session in like a week

by good i mean 9 trollocs vs 1 human

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:22 pm

Horse hopping is a problem from fd-caem. Not so much in normal pk zones.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:42 pm

horse hopping is also a problem in blight, there's what, 3 loads? I've chased pukes from keep to bearlon and back to fd. Some players claim to be able to go from keep to bearlon and back to keep in less than 4 tics.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:46 pm

There has to be multiple loads in blight in order for group pk to happen there.

I already said fd-caem is bad, I don't know of any way to change it to make it fair though.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:55 pm

And yes, Otar, trolloc mobility with vials as they were was not balanced.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:02 pm

Lamgwin wrote:And yes, Otar, trolloc mobility with vials as they were was not balanced.

I disagree. Humans had, and now have a bigger advantage on moves. Buying vials is also more expensive on DS.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:03 pm

Trollocs got(and maybe get) more moves from a vial than humans did.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:04 pm

Humans can horse-hop.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:06 pm

horses have less moves than a vial gave(maybe gives) trollocs.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:08 pm

Evilina wrote:an issuable horse with nice mvs and very limited hopping is the solution.

These horses would need to be basically unkillable, unbashable, etc. And can't be too expensive, considering this would be the only way for humans to really compete with moves.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:11 pm

I'm gonna have to see actual concrete numbers before I'm going to believe that.

A vial is 2.5 gold, how many is a troll gonna carry? Realistically.

Horses, hrm. That's funny, they're -free- and there's -a lot- of them.

A horse hopping human > a troll with a couple vials as far as moves are concerned.

A human's move limit is absurdly high, a troll is limited by max moves and how many vials he/she has. Which as I said before, are expensive.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:12 pm

Lamgwin wrote:
Evilina wrote:an issuable horse with nice mvs and very limited hopping is the solution.
These horses would need to be basically unkillable, unbashable, etc. And can't be too expensive, considering this would be the only way for humans to really compete with moves.

I agree with this, with only one or two horses that have to be purchased they'll have to be pretty friggin hard to kill.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:14 pm

Otar wrote:I'm gonna have to see actual concrete numbers before I'm going to believe that.

A vial is 2.5 gold, how many is a troll gonna carry? Realistically.

Horses, hrm. That's funny, they're -free- and there's -a lot- of them.

A horse hopping human > a troll with a couple vials as far as moves are concerned.

A human's move limit is absurdly high, a troll is limited by max moves and how many vials he/she has. Which as I said before, are expensive.

Vials used to give, I believe, 70% of the total moves. So for a trolloc with 240 moves that gave them 168 moves. A warhorse had (maybe has) 144 moves. Simple maths, yo.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:16 pm

The whole problem with the current setup is group pk fucking sucks for humans, while solo/low number pk sucks for trollocs.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:16 pm

When the warhorse gets hagg, the puke can jump on another, and another, and another.

For a troll to compete with a horse-hopping puke he'd have to carry a lot of vials.

Horses are much much easier to get than a vial. Don't compare them on a 1 to 1 ratio, that doesn't reflect availability.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:17 pm

Warhorses don't load anywhere outside of FD, FM, etc. You'd have to buy them and plant them before hand.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:19 pm

Then the puke would get on a different type of horse, of course.

Your rebuttal fails to refute my point.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:22 pm

The moves on the other horses were substantially lower up until a week or so ago. I can't remember the exact values, but something like 50 less moves for a white stallion in terms of versus a trolloc who quaffed a vial, and even worse for a grey.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:23 pm

Lamgwin wrote:The whole problem with the current setup is group pk f***ing sucks for humans, while solo/low number pk sucks for trollocs.

And I think you're missing the central issue.

This arguing about if vials should have been changed because humans can horse hop is retarded. Vials needed to be changed, the argument is now should humans get super horses that are issuable.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:23 pm

Big deal, they could have even less moves and still a puke would have more mobility than a troll with a few vials.

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:28 pm

Lamgwin wrote:
Lamgwin wrote:The whole problem with the current setup is group pk f***ing sucks for humans, while solo/low number pk sucks for trollocs.
And I think you're missing the central issue.

This arguing about if vials should have been changed because humans can horse hop is retarded. Vials needed to be changed, the argument is now should humans get super horses that are issuable.

Otar · Post by **Otar** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:02 pm

A: I disagree with your assertion that vials needed to be changed.

B: the vial change is definitely an issue, arguing about it is not 'retarded'

C: There is no argument as of right now about humans getting issuable horses that are beefy, that argument is going to be about the details.

D: I like how you're trying to change the subject

Lamgwin · Post by **Lamgwin** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:09 pm

If you don't see the problem with getting 168( assuming max of 240) moves instantly with no thought about having to run to a load, or conserving moves, or anything, and then being able to quaff them on an unlimited basis(assuming people have quite a bit of gold), then I have nothing to say to you.

Get the super horses in, and the vials will be fine.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:42 pm

i agree with otar.

human mobility > trolloc mobility and this advantage becomes absurd if there is pk anywhere south of fd. I think anyone that plays both sides can see this unless they're extremely bias.

as far as your argument regarding horse loads is concerned, there are 5 loads (not horses. places you can get horses) between fd and keep. This isn't counting e blight or nimah pass. As a human i've never once died due to running out of mvs. As a trolloc i've died quite a few times being hag. I find vials to be extremely expensive and only buy one when i have the cash. (mind you i mine quite a bit as well, and still struggle to have enough cash to get vials). When i do have a vial as a trolloc i end up using it within 2 pk sessions. If humans group up and smash us, unless you have moves to run north of gap you're pretty much screwed. More times than not i hear people narrating "i'm hag. gonna die" on ds. This happens once in a blue moon on ls.

If i had an imm i'd set up some kind of script to count whenever a human or trolloc died with less than 20 mvs. I think this add quite a bit of crediablity to otar's assertion that troll mvs < human mvs.

As far as pk south of fd, it isn't worth counting the number of horseloads becuase there are just so many of them, which lamgwin even stated. If a trolloc raids caemlyn, or even tv, a human has no trouble keeping up with due to the sheer number of horse loads.

I really like the idea of issuable mounts and removing/ reducing the number of horse loads outside of cities.

I'd also streamline the cost of vials so they at least cost the same amount on both sides. In fact, i'd argue trolloc vials should be cheaper than human vials because of their mobility disadvantage.