The State of PK
The only thing I want to see out of this argument is people who think bash is underpowered admitting that a blanket fix will rape all channelers who dont have the stats of a rogue.
Because if anything is changed, I dont want the imms to think that you want people who already get tossed around like wet noodles to be a completely useless character who has to switch to abs to survive anything.
Because if anything is changed, I dont want the imms to think that you want people who already get tossed around like wet noodles to be a completely useless character who has to switch to abs to survive anything.
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Guest
Just looked through my logs. Raidin, my bad 
. I was missing so many hits i thought you were in combo (not sure why but w/e)
i did a find in file search to determine the 'facts'
Raidin vs me (138 db)
bashed 5 missed 9 (35% bash land rate)
Heritage vs me (138 db):
Bashed 16 missed 23 (43 % bash land rate)
Heritage vs me (143 db):
Bashed 3 Missed 5 (37% bash land rate)
. I was missing so many hits i thought you were in combo (not sure why but w/e)i did a find in file search to determine the 'facts'
Raidin vs me (138 db)
bashed 5 missed 9 (35% bash land rate)
Heritage vs me (138 db):
Bashed 16 missed 23 (43 % bash land rate)
Heritage vs me (143 db):
Bashed 3 Missed 5 (37% bash land rate)
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ive played here for 4-5 weeks now. In that time, I've played mostly dodge chars and managed to get rank 3 on one and rank 2 on another. Let me share some observations from a non-mastered char who has no unique equipment or exclusive skills:
1) As a dreadguard, straight up melee vs bash is about 95% death. Even with top end dex, agility and all the dodge equipment besides raid gear I top out at around 125 db at best. I have 263 hps at lvl 41. This means that 1-2 bash = dead. With looting, that means that it's just 1 bash to take this char out of pk for 1 day. Why? Because only top end gear keeps it alive vs. the current state of bash.
2) As a thief, straight up melee is about equal vs someone like Uhl. When it comes to any master/remort (Lamgwin, Heritage, Chase) with decent bash my thief is usually toast. I find it funny how often this class of players decries the effectiveness of the class vs. melee.
I have never found a use for precisestrike nor tried projectiles. Alas, it seems I could have won time after time had I only done so...at least if the usual accounts from those players are true.
Edit: Actually, I have thus far had a 1/12 survival rate in general pk for picky people. Of those 12 deaths, 2 occured due to mobbing (1 being doored, another from being crit and aggroed).
So 91.66% instead of 95% in general. Its not all attributable to bash alone either - there have been instances where the death occurred due to overwhelming numbers of opposing players who target this character exclusively for easy kills. That last is one reason why it sees relatively little gameplay for the simple reason that no skill or command save flee exists to protect against a whole group targeting the channeler.
If you down this char any further it honestly wont' be worth playing until an autorescue skill is implemented.
1) As a dreadguard, straight up melee vs bash is about 95% death. Even with top end dex, agility and all the dodge equipment besides raid gear I top out at around 125 db at best. I have 263 hps at lvl 41. This means that 1-2 bash = dead. With looting, that means that it's just 1 bash to take this char out of pk for 1 day. Why? Because only top end gear keeps it alive vs. the current state of bash.
2) As a thief, straight up melee is about equal vs someone like Uhl. When it comes to any master/remort (Lamgwin, Heritage, Chase) with decent bash my thief is usually toast. I find it funny how often this class of players decries the effectiveness of the class vs. melee.
I have never found a use for precisestrike nor tried projectiles. Alas, it seems I could have won time after time had I only done so...at least if the usual accounts from those players are true.
Edit: Actually, I have thus far had a 1/12 survival rate in general pk for picky people. Of those 12 deaths, 2 occured due to mobbing (1 being doored, another from being crit and aggroed).
So 91.66% instead of 95% in general. Its not all attributable to bash alone either - there have been instances where the death occurred due to overwhelming numbers of opposing players who target this character exclusively for easy kills. That last is one reason why it sees relatively little gameplay for the simple reason that no skill or command save flee exists to protect against a whole group targeting the channeler.
If you down this char any further it honestly wont' be worth playing until an autorescue skill is implemented.
Im bashing less than 25%. 21 str voulge.
Lamarsh, playing a channeler successfully has a lot to do with the correct application of status weaves.
Status weaves to help channelers against bashers:
Agility (adds dodge bonus)
Cripple (takes away one str - which for some of us will be disarming)
Chill (reduces ob and bash ability)
Another way to kill bashers with a channeler:
BASH THEM
Lamarsh, playing a channeler successfully has a lot to do with the correct application of status weaves.
Status weaves to help channelers against bashers:
Agility (adds dodge bonus)
Cripple (takes away one str - which for some of us will be disarming)
Chill (reduces ob and bash ability)
Another way to kill bashers with a channeler:
BASH THEM
Your blood freezes as you hear *Chase*'s death cry.
*Chase* is dead! R.I.P.
HP:Beaten MV:Draining > nar And now that I'm beat from pk watch harry show up in 3, 2, 1...
You narrate 'And now that I'm beat from pk watch harry show up in 3, 2, 1...'
HP:Beaten MV:Draining >
*Harry* has arrived from the east, riding a warhorse.
HP:Beaten MV:Draining >nar lol im a freakin psychic
*Chase* is dead! R.I.P.
HP:Beaten MV:Draining > nar And now that I'm beat from pk watch harry show up in 3, 2, 1...
You narrate 'And now that I'm beat from pk watch harry show up in 3, 2, 1...'
HP:Beaten MV:Draining >
*Harry* has arrived from the east, riding a warhorse.
HP:Beaten MV:Draining >nar lol im a freakin psychic
Nods. I heard that the other day. This MUD definitely has great weave selection, many of which I haven't tried. Thanks for the heads up.
Anyway, I posted all that to give some of you another perspective. Its all well and good to tweak skills but just don't make it even harder to win if you don't group or play a master. I like wasting time on here but there's a point where getting killed over and over again isn't really worth the investment if another class doesn't need to lose as much eq, time, wps and lvls. That was my point.
Short version: I can hardly survive now - mess with dodge, and you make channelers (who are already prime basher targets) straw men. Funny how channelers were the most powerful class in the books, and on here they practically need a force field vs masters who only use uniques and can't play without them.
Anyway, I posted all that to give some of you another perspective. Its all well and good to tweak skills but just don't make it even harder to win if you don't group or play a master. I like wasting time on here but there's a point where getting killed over and over again isn't really worth the investment if another class doesn't need to lose as much eq, time, wps and lvls. That was my point.
Short version: I can hardly survive now - mess with dodge, and you make channelers (who are already prime basher targets) straw men. Funny how channelers were the most powerful class in the books, and on here they practically need a force field vs masters who only use uniques and can't play without them.
idk the solution to the problem, but someone has to. i know that when i fight a channie 1vs1 its always close. me and callisto have both been beat/crit before and its last bash to call the fight. but the darned 138db+ thieves are pwning and everyone knows this. that is why 90% of ds are thieves pking. now i suppose ls could all go thieves too and then we could have thief vs thief wars as pk.
Jinn worte:
Jinn worte:
let me repeat, you cannot base bash off just me and raiden. you have to use someone like talmaes to get the TRUE facts. id like to see him land 10% heh.Raidin vs me (138 db)
bashed 5 missed 9 (35% bash land rate)
Heritage vs me (138 db):
Bashed 16 missed 23 (43 % bash land rate)
Heritage vs me (143 db):
Bashed 3 Missed 5 (37% bash land rate)
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Guest
for one, tiberius uses a uniqueactually tiberius' is NOT significantly below anyones. Nor are most of the others that I've encountered.
secondly, jinn brought the facts and that is what we need. data speaks louder than what you've encountered
i agree, channies are fine atmAlso, on a side note, channies SHOULD be close. They were in the books, and here, the most powerful weapon that existed.
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Guest
The thing i like most about this game is any class can go toe to toe with any other class one on one.
Thiefs excel at solo pk as well as having high damage output, absers excell at group pk and also have high damage output. (bash in group pk is just devastatingly effective. I don't think anyone can doubt this point). Multi bash at rank 6 simple adds to this, allowing an abser to walk into a room engage a group, multi bash, call his group in for extreme dmg. Comboers are in the middle able to bash, not nearly as well as an abser, but have the defense of thiefs.
Yes, i agree finding a balance is very difficult. I for one absoulutly hate the 5% chance of being hit or 5% chance of missing regardless of defense. I think it really skews the game way to much. This in and of itself really destroys dodge. Think about it: a group of 4 chases a dodger. Lets assume the dodger has 10000 def. Each of them has a 5% chance of hitting the dodger, This effecitvly translates into about 20% chance per round of a dodger being hit which means in about 5 rounds a dodger will have about 50-100 hps taken off. Compound this with the fact that groups break a dodger's def anyway and dodgers get absolutely owned by groups. I really hate dieing in one bash from helathy. I could be making a million posts advocating for auto wimpy or asking for bash land rate against full dodge to be lowered.
To be honest, i think if anything is change it should be a MINOR tweak, perhaps in favor of dodgers. perhaps in favor of absers. perhaps no change is needed at all. I've only been playing here a months o i cant really make any statements with confidence.
However, one thing i can say for certain is that these extensive changes that are being called for by supposed veteran players are NOT the solution.
Thiefs excel at solo pk as well as having high damage output, absers excell at group pk and also have high damage output. (bash in group pk is just devastatingly effective. I don't think anyone can doubt this point). Multi bash at rank 6 simple adds to this, allowing an abser to walk into a room engage a group, multi bash, call his group in for extreme dmg. Comboers are in the middle able to bash, not nearly as well as an abser, but have the defense of thiefs.
Yes, i agree finding a balance is very difficult. I for one absoulutly hate the 5% chance of being hit or 5% chance of missing regardless of defense. I think it really skews the game way to much. This in and of itself really destroys dodge. Think about it: a group of 4 chases a dodger. Lets assume the dodger has 10000 def. Each of them has a 5% chance of hitting the dodger, This effecitvly translates into about 20% chance per round of a dodger being hit which means in about 5 rounds a dodger will have about 50-100 hps taken off. Compound this with the fact that groups break a dodger's def anyway and dodgers get absolutely owned by groups. I really hate dieing in one bash from helathy. I could be making a million posts advocating for auto wimpy or asking for bash land rate against full dodge to be lowered.
To be honest, i think if anything is change it should be a MINOR tweak, perhaps in favor of dodgers. perhaps in favor of absers. perhaps no change is needed at all. I've only been playing here a months o i cant really make any statements with confidence.
However, one thing i can say for certain is that these extensive changes that are being called for by supposed veteran players are NOT the solution.
Sheesh heritage make me sound like a noob but its true, as it stands right now a non-master abser is at a severe disadvantage from the get go against anyone but another abser. Take a dodger and an abser of equal skill and let them duke it out and the dodger is going to win 85-90% just because he is in dodge.
Your sample sizes are too small Jinn.
And you're confusing group pk with a group versus a solo person. In group versus group pk it's often 1 vs 1, 1 vs 1, 1 vs 1, 1 vs 1, etc. You're trying to say that bash is devastating in group pk, but you're forgetting that in group pk the numbers are typically even. Don't confuse one person being hit by 4 with 4 on 4.
And you're confusing group pk with a group versus a solo person. In group versus group pk it's often 1 vs 1, 1 vs 1, 1 vs 1, 1 vs 1, etc. You're trying to say that bash is devastating in group pk, but you're forgetting that in group pk the numbers are typically even. Don't confuse one person being hit by 4 with 4 on 4.
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Guest