Flee stabbing
Flee stabbing
With the recent epidemic of flee stabbing stab damage or stab landing, or both, needs to be downed.
Lol, you're both so full of shit it's hilarious. Firstly, no one lands bashes on full dodgers 90%, not even close. Subtract about 60% off from that for the best weapons in the game.
Also, not going to kill us in one stab from healthy is also not true. You're capable of doing over 458 hps of damage in one stab.
Also, you already have some of the highest melee damage output. Then you have a skill that, sometimes, can't be countered which can kill you from full health.
When you stabbed me dead, it wasn't a fleestab. So how could it be a post death whine?
Also, not going to kill us in one stab from healthy is also not true. You're capable of doing over 458 hps of damage in one stab.
Also, you already have some of the highest melee damage output. Then you have a skill that, sometimes, can't be countered which can kill you from full health.
When you stabbed me dead, it wasn't a fleestab. So how could it be a post death whine?
Absers aren't a piece of cake. I've been playing them some and they aren't near as easy as they were on old mud. Im not jumping on the down stab bus. For instance I said dodge needed help when they were getting eaten a few weeks ago. Now its back to where its pretty much impossible to kill a thief. Fleelag isnt accumulating fast enough and fleestab seems to be a new trend.
People used to complain that stab was useless because people spammed. This is exactly what I have said about skewer/charge being useless. I don't see how its fair that thieves can just fleestab and it seems normal but chargers can't do the same. Not to mention that fleestab negates any chance a basher has. He can sit there and spam, but he eventually dies because thieves just melee him. If he starts running bashes he can get stabbed because a pkers reaction time is not instant and he can die in the pulse that the other thief has fleed.
If you are trying to say dodge is in that dire of straights I am not going to buy it. Just take a look at how pk goes lately. DS or LS raids. DS thieves aren't going to die because they can just flee around until horses run out of mvs or until they stab the horses. OR they can run in any city, whether DS or LS, and be safe unless there are other thieves who have track on (why we have to have a thief on as a prerequisite to chase you effectively, I have no idea. I want rangers to be untrackable except to other rangers if we are going to follow that logic). In addition we have to have a bash with either a unique or master weapon to bash you. I've tried using a claymore, and I landed 2/30 on a thief with an mediocre set, so you can't say that bash is way overpowered.
Im not saying down dodge, I just say lets look at this objectively. Do you really feel things are balanced atm? You can fleestab someone (and maybe only to crit/beat, but they are effectively dead or out of pk), and all it takes is timing. It may be somewhat difficult to pull off, but its pretty much death for an abs basher no matter what unless they go to mobs.
People used to complain that stab was useless because people spammed. This is exactly what I have said about skewer/charge being useless. I don't see how its fair that thieves can just fleestab and it seems normal but chargers can't do the same. Not to mention that fleestab negates any chance a basher has. He can sit there and spam, but he eventually dies because thieves just melee him. If he starts running bashes he can get stabbed because a pkers reaction time is not instant and he can die in the pulse that the other thief has fleed.
If you are trying to say dodge is in that dire of straights I am not going to buy it. Just take a look at how pk goes lately. DS or LS raids. DS thieves aren't going to die because they can just flee around until horses run out of mvs or until they stab the horses. OR they can run in any city, whether DS or LS, and be safe unless there are other thieves who have track on (why we have to have a thief on as a prerequisite to chase you effectively, I have no idea. I want rangers to be untrackable except to other rangers if we are going to follow that logic). In addition we have to have a bash with either a unique or master weapon to bash you. I've tried using a claymore, and I landed 2/30 on a thief with an mediocre set, so you can't say that bash is way overpowered.
Im not saying down dodge, I just say lets look at this objectively. Do you really feel things are balanced atm? You can fleestab someone (and maybe only to crit/beat, but they are effectively dead or out of pk), and all it takes is timing. It may be somewhat difficult to pull off, but its pretty much death for an abs basher no matter what unless they go to mobs.
I think it's pretty funny that DS dodge stabbers have been so underpowered compared to LS abs bashers, for so ridiculously long, and now (I wouldn't know, I haven't been able to play in bloody weeks) that things have changed in favor of us, people are complaining about it. I don't disagree with most of what you said, Chase, except for a few bits, including you saying something to the effect of thieves being safe inside cities. We're about as safe as anyone else, all things considered... sure we can hide, but if you find us, we have to run, get low on mvs... and if there are more than one of you we're really screwed because you can keep gates closed and chase us at the same time.
You guys are talking about not being able to bash us effectively, well, that's the point... once we get bashed we're going to get beat on because most of us are rocking the 4% abs.
And then there's this... "DS thieves aren't going to die because they can just flee around until horses run out of mvs or until they stab the horses" ... that's crazy talk man. I would say that 90% of my deaths come from having no mvs and getting chased down by you [mounted] bashers. Maybe we're OK if we're in our own zones, but since it seems like DS comes south to PK more than LS comes north...
You guys are talking about not being able to bash us effectively, well, that's the point... once we get bashed we're going to get beat on because most of us are rocking the 4% abs.
And then there's this... "DS thieves aren't going to die because they can just flee around until horses run out of mvs or until they stab the horses" ... that's crazy talk man. I would say that 90% of my deaths come from having no mvs and getting chased down by you [mounted] bashers. Maybe we're OK if we're in our own zones, but since it seems like DS comes south to PK more than LS comes north...
I wasn't saying that blicks don't ever happen, I was saying that it's rare to stab a guy with over 400 hps to dead from healthy, even when you're a master greyman.
Also, I was agreeing with Kombat about stab not needing to be changed, not about the 90%+ bash rate that doesn't exist.
Lastly, I agree with Phantasm's quote: "You guys are talking about not being able to bash us effectively, well, that's the point... once we get bashed we're going to get beat on because most of us are rocking the 4% abs." I also wanted to add to it that now that there's a chance to ignore defense when meleeing someone, dodgers get fragged on a lot without bash too.
Also, I was agreeing with Kombat about stab not needing to be changed, not about the 90%+ bash rate that doesn't exist.
Lastly, I agree with Phantasm's quote: "You guys are talking about not being able to bash us effectively, well, that's the point... once we get bashed we're going to get beat on because most of us are rocking the 4% abs." I also wanted to add to it that now that there's a chance to ignore defense when meleeing someone, dodgers get fragged on a lot without bash too.
Chase wrote:Now its back to where its pretty much impossible to kill a thief. Fleelag isnt accumulating fast enough and fleestab seems to be a new trend.
Actually Chase it is quite the reverse for anyone vs. uneven numbers. I have literally watched myself flee and seen people enter and engage me before any command would initiate due to the fleelag you say doesn't really work. It's a death sentence dude if you don't play on a very fast link. Try it sometime. Anyone who gets on more than they can handle and is solo is gonna die because they flee and flee and it accumulates and doesn't disperse in a timely fashion. The result is pk that drives people to flee. I got out because Otar created a diversion and pk happened right afterwards.
Its not useless, but spammers stop the effectiveness of both skills, as well as many weaves. I say leave that as it is.Chase wrote:People used to complain that stab was useless because people spammed. This is exactly what I have said about skewer/charge being useless...
However, isn't charge able to be foiled with just a trigger? I say it would be easy to charge people with flee lag with some team work. Get the other person lagged then have one flee off, the other charges. It'll go off.
I'd vote we just forget the hypothetical arguments. If we want to talk about what's possible, then why not discuss the possibly infinite human moves? Horses eventually wander away from stacking points, but they're still around there. You never have to stop going if you can just hit dism ride 2.horse.Chase wrote:DS thieves aren't going to die because they can just flee around until horses run out of mvs or until they stab the horses...I've tried using a claymore, and I landed 2/30 on a thief with an mediocre set, so you can't say that bash is way overpowered.
Even if that were the case, how are the problems with trolloc moves different than a horse with human moves that doubles yours? You can change horses and never stop. That just isn't the case for trollocs, and you're going to have to accept the classes that move on foot are inequal in terms of movement ability.
Remember that we have fade mobs that transport us around and fades to take us back? These are used very frequently because nobody is as autonomous as you've written. I'd be hagg by the time I reached Fal Dara. I reach mid moves just moving from fal dara patty.
If your horses suck, why not vote to up them? They're killable, which kind of balances that. Tiberius got away from pk crit earlier and I had blicked his horse.
Maybe its not as bad as you think.
I just said that Lyrak. Trolls have fade which let them just lose 50 mvs to move, while humans have to run up to gk when they raid, which totally drains their mvs. I could have infinite moves if I brought up 3-4 horses to blight, but then that just screws over any LS in FD. But this is more about fleestabbing and how thieves are pretty untouchable unless you can get a group going vs them so I'll get off this subject.
Heh, I don't understand why you guys keep missing the most basic point. In order for humans to match the moves of trollocs in group pk, you'd have to have roughly 3 warhorses per person. After you add in the fact that Otar or Evilina are typically pking, with the fact that you can fade to Fal Dara patty and Fal Moran patty. With the fact that trollocs get better moves regen than humans, and their horses, it seems ridiculous to me that for a group of 4 humans to be able to match the moves of their trolloc counterpart group, they'd need to have 12 warhorses sitting in various locations in blight. Due to the cost of warhorses, this would be 1.8 gold. Last time I checked trollocs didn't need to burn 1.8 gold every pk session in order to just keep up with humans.
I wish that were true, Chase!Chase wrote:thieves are pretty untouchable unless you can get a group going vs them
Regretfully, we are vulnerable to a number of factors. Any channeler with that burn weave effectively takes out your stab. Then they slow you and create fire or call in someone to bash. So much for invincible.
Anyone who can bash properly knows rogues are absolutely useless in melee versus abs. At best we can whittle absers down and possibly win if they can't ever bash us, but I'm pretty sure that there's a system in place to hit through perfect defense and to ensure that some characters can bash any defense that exists. I'm also pretty sure that nobody is going to stick around that long unless they are stuck behind a door. Melee can work if you use precise strike and attack (getting 3 hits per round), but then the problem is that you don't kill them as fast as they can if they do bash you, such as most blademasters who shred my set (-2 db from perfect).
Rogues are one trick ponies that do one skill well that fails % of the time and need to be able to make it out alive to try again. If you only get one shot due to moves being gimped or notice costs upped, then you there's little point, right? The problems you are describing are just problems with the class's design. Without adding any poisoned knives, martial arts, smoke bombs, sniper weapons or unbreakable hide/sneak this class is going to be taken to the cleaners if the landing is messed with, or moves reduced for either version of thieves.
Why not just remove ds rogues and imp draghkar who can insta kill with soul-reaping, fly around endless tracts of MUD and is only killable with arrows and weaves? Then I might agree that the class under discussion is "pretty untouchable without a group." hahaha, that would be awesome.
As far as having a hard time getting to gk, that's too bad. We have a hard time getting to fd as well, and its no fun waiting 3 tics for my hagg moves to get me back home or having to expend 2.25 gold to make the trip to pk. There are patties to sit on with horse loads for you guys, I believe.
Last edited by Lyrak on Mon May 17, 2010 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mind posting your equation?Lamgwin wrote:If you want to add a vial into the mix Lyrak, then you'll have to add two more warhorses per person, bringing the total number of warhorses for a group of 4 to keep up with a group of trollocs to 20.
Forgive my ignorance, but for the sake of discussion, lets say you can follow cross race.
You're saying that in a journey together in which I'm going full mvs to hagg, then vialing, then continuing to hagg, you'd have to switch horses 4 times?
One of my trollocs has 235 base moves. If vials rejuvenated all my mvs, you're saying that each horse has 66 moves if you have 140 human mvs?
That might work for all I know of game mechanics, but I rode a white stallion around to test it and he got 56 rooms. If he uses 2 per room like humans than he's got 112 moves.
The trolloc uses his 235 moves, then gains another 235, which he expends for a total of 470 moves used in under one tic.
The human uses his first horse's 112 moves, his second horse's 112 moves, his third horse's 112 moves and his original 140, for a total of 476 mvs.
So, in conclusion, the human need only remount twice to overtake the trolloc with three rooms to spare.
Last edited by Lyrak on Mon May 17, 2010 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
With compel, vials, etc being used by trollocs and warhorses having 144 max moves, it would take roughly 5 warhorses to keep up with a trolloc group in group pk that took a decent amount of time. 15-30ish minutes worth. Trollocs have higher regen per tic than horses do as well.
I'll say this again. In group pk the moves balance heavily favors trollocs. Especially when adding in vials, compel, moves idols, etc.
Group pk, group pk, group pk, group pk. I'm not talking about solo pk with just me horse hopping.
I'll say this again. In group pk the moves balance heavily favors trollocs. Especially when adding in vials, compel, moves idols, etc.
Group pk, group pk, group pk, group pk. I'm not talking about solo pk with just me horse hopping.
Here and here are where you lost me. There are 3 blademaster, 2 which actually play often. Can't really compare a remort class to bash as a whole.Lyrak wrote: such as most blademasters who shred my set (-2 db from perfect).
As far as having a hard time getting to gk, that's too bad. We have a hard time getting to fd as
As for a hard time getting to fd? This is where I question if you have ever even played DS.
Its really easy to get to FD. Check out Murash..ok i think nicotine kombat and myself play the rogue class the most on this mud, you guys are remembering all the blicks and dodge bashes but you seem to forget the times we brick, dont blick and get bash.
as thieves are at the moment they are perfect, we blick alot less, we land alot less and for a thief in full dodge, we get bashed more than enough considering one bash with 2 people on us takes us instantly to wound/batt. also we get hit unbashed alot more, like i said thieves are fine at the moment and i am enjoying playing them.
i agree with fleestab though, i dont like it and never will like it, i would like to see it fixed.
as thieves are at the moment they are perfect, we blick alot less, we land alot less and for a thief in full dodge, we get bashed more than enough considering one bash with 2 people on us takes us instantly to wound/batt. also we get hit unbashed alot more, like i said thieves are fine at the moment and i am enjoying playing them.
i agree with fleestab though, i dont like it and never will like it, i would like to see it fixed.
It looks like this thread is as much about mvs as it is about stab, so I'll post a suggestion here.
What if we made it so that you could "train" or "domesticate" your horse depending on your skill level in Ride. I propose the following:
1. Domesticated horses will be only rideable by the one who trained them.
2. They'll be much, much harder to kill or stab.
3. They'll have a lot more mvs or added mv regen, or both.
4. You can only stable domesticated horses.
5. We could possibly implement a system where you and your horse grow together, and the horse gains levels or grows in some way to where it would get more and more mvs the longer you kept the same horse.
What if we made it so that you could "train" or "domesticate" your horse depending on your skill level in Ride. I propose the following:
1. Domesticated horses will be only rideable by the one who trained them.
2. They'll be much, much harder to kill or stab.
3. They'll have a lot more mvs or added mv regen, or both.
4. You can only stable domesticated horses.
5. We could possibly implement a system where you and your horse grow together, and the horse gains levels or grows in some way to where it would get more and more mvs the longer you kept the same horse.
First time a humans horse hags and has to dismount that horse is dead, this would work if vials affected horse mvs as vials affect dser mvs.Koradin wrote:It looks like this thread is as much about mvs as it is about stab, so I'll post a suggestion here.
What if we made it so that you could "train" or "domesticate" your horse depending on your skill level in Ride. I propose the following:
1. Domesticated horses will be only rideable by the one who trained them.
2. They'll be much, much harder to kill or stab.
3. They'll have a lot more mvs or added mv regen, or both.
4. You can only stable domesticated horses.
5. We could possibly implement a system where you and your horse grow together, and the horse gains levels or grows in some way to where it would get more and more mvs the longer you kept the same horse.
The concept of a horse growing with a human means more exping which most of us hate.
more and more mvs the longer you keep a horse would be op, this would need to be capped at some point.
I do like the idea of owning a mount and being able to name it etc, would add to the game that's for certain.Tiberius wrote:I like the idea of there being more interaction with horses and if it was harder to stab and had better regen it might encourage ppl to stay on the same horse lest it get stabbed.