Statting System

Post by **Galnor** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:01 am

Heya all,

I basically want to know what you guys think of the statting system so far. The idea of the current system was to not require the players of the game to invest loads of time into something that was, well, random. Instead they should be able to choose their own stats, which are limited, to get what they want. I also realize there are problems with dodge and ABS right now, and those should be taken into consideration when you state what you think of the current system. So, what I'd like to know is:

1. Do you guys like it more with the current "Choose your stats" system, or the old "Randomization" system?

2. Despite your answer to number 1, what do you HONESTLY believe should be changed with the current system?

3. Are the bonuses to each class, and the trolloc strength potential of 20/21 bonuses out of line?

Thanks.

-Galnor

Luyn · Post by **Luyn** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:43 am

well. I liked it better when stats were random, honestly, because I enjoyed feeling rewarded after long hours of statting. Getting that 19 19 18. Beautiful. Your stats used to be your status.

The new system, however, is more fair, I think, and more friendly to the newer player. It also takes much less time to start a character. My main issue with the current system, however, is that characters are cookie cut. Abser's are 21 x 19 or 20 x 19. Dodgers are 16 18 18 or 17 17 18. Stabbers 15 20 18 or 17 20 16. Diversity with one character has been eliminated. No longer can you get a practice reset and go abs when you were once combo.

With the new system, channelers are screwed. With non-channie characters, the intelligence and wisdom remain in the same region for everyone (around 10-12, human). This makes not only stats identical but practices as well.

Dodge needs to be fixed - perhaps make it harder to bash a dodger? Gristlyn and I had a conversation about this. The absers to dodgers ratio has to be 3:1 or 3:2. The obvious reason, of course, is because absers can hurt dodgers badly. Stabbers are hurt worse by this. After they have been discovered they are nearly useless. Dodge bashers have more luck but suffer in group pk.

Abs needs to be fixed (or I don't understand the system correctly.) What happened to 82%? What's this 54% business? I have played around with an abs trolloc and find myself wishing for the old system of abs.

All in all, I'm very pleased with the mud. You can tell because I play it. I do not mean to criticize, at all, my hat is off to Galnor and his team for giving us this environment to play in. I mean no offense. I would like to see some sort of random stats put in, as a reward for hard working players. Perhaps a choice at prompt whether or not you want your stats to be left to chance, or, on the contrary, to have points allocated at level 1? Thanks again, Galnor. You're my hero.

Chase · Post by **Chase** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:51 am

Even though I myself am a ranger, so I may be slightly biased, I feel dodgy or combo rangers got the shaft. Both abs warriors and abs rangers rock, and so do the thieves with the very nice dex. Dodge rangers, however are very lacking in the overall stat category..

For example, I had a very nice dodge set in which I had full dodge and full trinks (minus fade cuffs) along with a shield. In that set, I barely broke 200 defense dismounted. A thief with 20 dex wore it and he had like 225 def fairly easily. Now I realize that rangers should be able to pull off dodge as well as thieves, but I feel that large of difference is a little flawed.

The way to change this might cause some problems for other classes. I was thinking that perhaps 10 extra skill points would make rangers more on par with the other classes. Since rangers have to have all 3 main stats, they do not benefit as much from having the 10 point cost for each stat. Warrior only have to worry about 2 stats. Thieves main stat, dex, has a cost of 10.After they max out their dodge they have enough left over to comfortably invest in con and str. I have even thought of making a thief and turning him into dodge or combo with bash weapons just because they can get such nice stats. A 16 19 17 rogue basher would beat a 17 17 18 hunter anyday..

I hope you don't feel this is too biased, I actually tried to consider how this would affect other classes. This is not about me, but more about how rangers are in the balance of stats.

On the other hand, I must say that this stat system is awesome. I love how you don't have to waste so log statting. When I first heard your description of the new statting system, I thought that everyone would stat the same char. That was wrong. I've heard of many different stat setups. Though I do miss the feeling you get when you pull off that well stated char that you've been trying to get for so long. Great job and great idea.

Axxey · Post by **Axxey** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:42 am

I wasn't sure how it would balance out but I feel the stat allocation is incredibly even, you can choose to specialize in one area(you could have stacked more in dex chase) at a cost to another.

I do however think that the practice system is currently a little too tight. Not being able to just maximize everything is good but other than on my abs warrior i have bare minimum(to me) of everything rather than specialized in 1 area.

Getting 4 pracs instead of 3 per level up to lvl20 or something would be quite good.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:54 am

well it should be that a Combo Ranger should be equivalant to a 21 str 19 con warrior or a 16 19 18 or what ever rogues can get etc...

but combo rangers are doomed! rogues are ok thou cause they dont gotta bash so they dont need the str

Nicotine · Post by **Nicotine** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:33 am

as far as a rogue's sweet dex helping them with dodge... i think i have the best set of dodge in the game right now, giving me 83 db and 129 pb, or 212 defense. i get owned if there's 2+ people on me, and owned if there's 1 decent basher on me.

as far as statting goes, im a more patient person, so i really liked the random ones where you could check stat at level 5 and see if your hard work paid off or not. it was a joy to be like "im not hitting stat, i dont wanna see more bad ones!" However, i do like the new system as well.

and a side not to Chase: a 17 17 18 ranger can be turned into a 16 19 17 ranger

Vurek · Post by **Vurek** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:08 pm

I like and dislike the new stating system:

Like:
1. Evens out the characters of the mud, yet this could also be laughed at because typically with the random stats everyone had uber stats, so in the end were even as well.

2. Thieves (particularly DS, as I only play ls) have lower con now, instead of the 400+ hps. Now they have 300 hps, and are relatively easier to kill now along with the fleelag instated.

Dislike:

1. Rangers being allowed to get to 20 con as their "bonus" I have no bonus compared to other 19 con players. Some have even beaten my lvl 30 hps of 417, and have passed me up. While rogues get 20 dex, which does indeed add some dodge, and while warriors do indeed get 20 str(ls) and 21 str(ds) and rangers get 20 str on ds they do indeed get more ob added. I feel I actually chose a potentially weaker character as I have only more hps than everyone else in the game because I have reached level 50. Other than that, I am a 16 17 19 statted ranger, instead of a 16 17 20 ranger.

2. The potential for 21 str and 20 str is a bit over the top(needs balancing). I understand it is a sweet bonus, but while dodge is weaker now, and was better earlier, a character with 17 dex can not compete anymore against 21 str trollocs, or 20 str lsers. I myself with 16 str and a nice weapon have 144 ob, I can't imagine having 21 str with the same weapon, I must be breaking near 160+. Chase predicted abs would own(100% correct) in the game(we thought we'd get 73% abs) and it still owns with 30% abs with the str and hps of these abser chars.

3. The limitations, very rough to get diversity, although I am 16 17 20, I am one of the few characters in the game that can actually pull off all types, although the practices are very rough. At lvl 50 going stab I had 86% in almost all stab pracs, 78% in other stab pracs, with 32% ride, 1 line track. Not many other people could pull this off, as they are not my lvl.

As to reading several of the aforementioned replies of characters, I think it is actually very biased that the ranger class is the only class screwed. Looking at thieves, they are potentially what i'd consider the weakest class, as they have low str and low con(although the 20 dex might make up for it, as I haven't gotten to test it, just heard about it). While naturally warrior class rocks and does what it needs to do.

If I were given the option to stat for my 18 19 19 stats, or 19 18 19 stats, I would do so. I greatly prefered the avg 30 attempts to stat to get awesome stats over the selection of mediocre stats(I never minded statting, after coming from wotmud it was a DREAM come true compared to wotmud).

Yet then again we entreat upon the problem of everyone having uber stats. Yet with the practices, these stats would still not reach full potential for dodgy characters.

I am fine with either way, leave the system as it is, and I will continue to enjoy the perks of destroying 300 hps thieves, while if the randomization is reinstated or optional I will enjoy the ability to max my character out at the cost of these thieves getting 400 hps again.

I do like this selection system, but I really do feel like a joke when I'm playing abs with my pimp 16 str(I really feel I have the worst bash in the game, I land 30% on absers and like 70% on dodgers) hehe.

Post by **Galnor** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:55 am

I think Vurek brought up a couple of points that are good...

1. Rangers being allowed to get to 20 con as their "bonus" I have no bonus compared to other 19 con players. Some have even beaten my lvl 30 hps of 417, and have passed me up. While rogues get 20 dex, which does indeed add some dodge, and while warriors do indeed get 20 str(ls) and 21 str(ds) and rangers get 20 str on ds they do indeed get more ob added. I feel I actually chose a potentially weaker character as I have only more hps than everyone else in the game because I have reached level 50. Other than that, I am a 16 17 19 statted ranger, instead of a 16 17 20 ranger.

This is something I overlooked. Warriors have a bonus right now that, despire their constituion, allows them to gain more HP per level. This definitely conflicts with the ranger CON bonus, so I think the best choise of action is to remove the bonus from warriors. However, does a constitution bonus even make sense? That seems more like a warrior thing, as does strength as well, but giving both to the warrior class would greatly overpower them.

2. The potential for 21 str and 20 str is a bit over the top(needs balancing). I understand it is a sweet bonus, but while dodge is weaker now, and was better earlier, a character with 17 dex can not compete anymore against 21 str trollocs, or 20 str lsers. I myself with 16 str and a nice weapon have 144 ob, I can't imagine having 21 str with the same weapon, I must be breaking near 160+. Chase predicted abs would own(100% correct) in the game(we thought we'd get 73% abs) and it still owns with 30% abs with the str and hps of these abser chars.

The extra strength potential is a "balance" effort for trollocs being unable to mount. That is not the problem, as if we were to down the strength bonus, we'd proceed with downing the OB from a mounted human player. The real solution(I've certainly heard many complaints about dodge), is to just lower all OB on weapons in the game.

I just want to make it clear, if we happen to change something with the statting system, we'll allow an opportunity to change up your stats. CON changes will be applied to your HP rolls, as will the rest of your stats. You'll likely be given a free practice reset as well, but I haven't decided exactly what all will happen. You'll hear more if/when such a thing occures.

Good input so far, keep it up.

-Galnor

Rachel · Post by **Rachel** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:33 am

The real solution(I've certainly heard many complaints about dodge), is to just lower all OB on weapons in the game.

Lowering OB versus PC's might help with hitting dodge, but most mobs in Blight cannot be hit at all. The nice xp mobs have to be stabbed or bashed(were possible). My Trolloc warrior, 99% weapon 21str 135ob brave cannot hit worms/hellions/scorpions/bears and can on rarely bash twisted lions with 99% bash. This would just make xping even more of a chore than it already is.

Vurek · Post by **Vurek** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:23 pm

Also like to add another thing I forgot to mention about the 20 con vs 19 con Galnor.

20 con gives 42 sleeping hps a tick.
19 con gives 40 sleeping hps a tick.

So there is in fact a bonus for a 20 con character, and I'm sure if warrior hps are fixed(the 14 hp rolls

) then it will even the classes.

Your right about Ranger's getting a con bonus doesn't make much sense, but still don't see what else a ranger could get instead of that.

(any ideas for a ranger bonus would be great)

Downing ob sounds great, full on with that, but as Rachel has posted, perhaps since characters ob's will downed, could typical mob defense be downed in order to fix that problem too?

The 21 str for trolls makes sense, forgot they didn't get the extra ob, although they do get extra db since never riding

(but that's another matter)

Vurek · Post by **Vurek** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:49 pm

Also thought:

Have a dual system, current system but also optional to stat for random stats.

Bonuses of the selection system would be that one could get get the 20 or 21 stat option for a particular stat that is set by class, and not having to work for it.

While random stats the highest stat would be 19, and with a max physical stat of 55(could be changed, but 54 the lowest please:P, I thought 55 better than 56 b/c 19 18 19 etc might cause too much of a statting problem). Ie 18 18 19, 19 18 18, 17 19 19, etc.

The random statters would never have the potential high ob/bash of the 21/20 str, would never have the highest possible dex of 20 dex, and would never have the highest possible hps as 20.

Yet would be given the option of being a diverse character, so that person would be able to play all types desired.

From this idea I see several things:

1. Great relaxation for absers(no extra time "wasted"), as what more could you ask for than 21 19, or 20 19? You have the best abser stats possible.
2. More work for people desiring the most playable stats, yet will never have the option of ideally perfecting a stat(20+)
3. Still allows the casual player(heh, with this exp!) to not waste time statting if they don't like it, and still have perfectly capable stats.

Naturally, one can only guess which option I would choose. If I were to choose from these 2 choices, I'd definately work my butt off for the 19 17 19 or 18 18 19 etc.

But that is me, while others might be perfectly suited with the rolled stats, as they didn't have to work for them besides typing info in, but they also have the bonus over the random statters in reaching 20+ in stats.

Example:

17 17 18 Ranger(ideal versatile char, of course others could change what stats they like best)

Yet if worked hard at, receive result at best:

18 18 19..etc.

Tis 3 points more. And I'd work hard for 3 points more

If this idea is considered, one can also consider how hard statting would like to be, if it stays same as old system(and i mean same exp to lvl 5

) or if it stays current exp to lvl 5(muy muy muy muy longer) with current deer loads then that's fine with me.

I think this will vividly classify the ideal determined player and the ideal casual player who thinks statting sucks but still can play with bonused stats.

Anyone like? Dislike? Galnor?

Vurek · Post by **Vurek** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:50 pm

Forgot about Int/Wis. Shrug those could just stay what they are and not be rolled randomly? 3 3 for trolls and 10 10 for humans, so as not to completely throw random statters over the top.

Chase · Post by **Chase** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:10 pm

If we did have the random stat option, I think it would be best to give characters the option to randomly stat.. I know that I would definetly go for the random stats, but then I would lost the 450mil exp I have already.

Darcon · Post by **Darcon** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:16 pm

I like the chose the way you stat. But with int and wis Id say keep it all random and keep xp to lvl 5 the same. statting will be alot more time consuming and if you end up statting as many as I did on old mud ill want good int too

I statted like 10 times to get decent trolloc mvs and it wasnt very fun.

Vurek · Post by **Vurek** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:25 pm

I'm pretty sure the IMM's would allow us to stat our already attained character, so as not to waste entirety of our time.

If you read Galnor's previous post, seems the only viable option to me if changes are made, as he said if he alters current selection statting, we will stay same lvl and just get rerolls of con etc.

Nicotine · Post by **Nicotine** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:47 pm

i'd personally like it if we kept it the way it was, then once at level 50, you kept on leveling, this time not gaining levels, but maybe at each level you could either add a prac, add a mv, add a hp, or put points aside to add a stat (remember stats cost like 10 or 20 pts each)

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:38 am

i think a lot of the statting system will come into view when the channeler class opens up and people find out they can't have really nicely statted channelers.

you say if the hp roll changes switched we can change everything even our class? i'd rather be a 19 20 ranger with 14 hp rolls than a 20 19 warrior without.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:34 am

Maybe you should be able to Increase stats with QP or TP or Big quests... After all if i keep doing my pushups im gonna become stronger,,, the more i fight the better i can parry, the more i dodge the better i should become at doding....

whatever you kiddos, i like the idea of developing a character instead of having different alts...

guess you would need a maximum thou,

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:40 am

just let ranger bonus be 15 points used for str 15 for dex nd 10 for con

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:28 pm

make rangers have max of 19 str so gay that they max out at 18.

Vurek · Post by **Vurek** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:00 pm

Galnor said:

Unlikely. The main reason it was changed was because it depended upon randomness completely. It's hard on new players who do not know about how the statting system used to work. They'll spend hours on their character only to later realize that their stats were horrible.

It is also unfair to those who do not have the time to invest in getting the best possible character. A part time player would automatically(unless lucky) be at a disadvantage.

So it doesn't look likely for the return of random stats. Will they change? In some way, probably.

I agree completely, but while contemplating the bold statement, one might also take a look at how exp is. It takes forever to get lvl 50, the only reason I got there was I played non-stop the first few days with triple/double exp. That also displays the unfairness of people who do not have time to invest in lvling for such a long time period.

One might say that lvl 30-50 only adds a tiny bit, but it can add 40+ hps and it adds 25 more pracs. That is huge in my eyes with the current practices.

So I'm not much a fan of this tedious hard work to get stuff and being unfair to other players.

Really think an optimal statting option after one gets their original point chosen stats would be best.

I must be a dork, but I'm with Ruinvar on this one. I never minded statting, I always actually enjoyed seeing the different PISS poor combinations that I got, or sometimes the soooo uber stats minus 1.(9 19 19 19 19)

There will always be casual players, and always more dedicated players. I think our prime goal is to attract as many people as possible, but right now the current stats only really make absers uber. Dodgers and whatnot are at such a malus due to their low hps/str(which is fine) while absers are the pure perfection of their class.

I could ramble on all day, so if any questions on how I view it, please ask, any comments suggestions etc also too.

Nicotine · Post by **Nicotine** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:51 pm

Maybe we could add a stat to the existing 5 that absers would need to practice...say

STR INT WIS DEX CON END

where END is endurance, and would help with mvs or something. don't absers need more mvs?

Nicotine · Post by **Nicotine** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:52 pm

oh, and by the way, my post at the top of this page has been posted at least 3 times in various threads, and no one ever answers me.

Post by **Galnor** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:07 pm

Nicotine wrote:oh, and by the way, my post at the top of this page has been posted at least 3 times in various threads, and no one ever answers me.

Because we don't randomly make promises like that.

Nicotine · Post by **Nicotine** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:39 pm

i wasn't asking for a promise, just a discussion or a second opinion or something. i wasn't necessarily asking for imm input on this particular thread, either

it was more to the general public.