KinslayerMUD Forums

I think to bring more people in this game, having more Sandbox like qualities.

We need to create more depth to the game and I think this will go a long way to adding more people and getting some different types of gamers here.

Quests

Some possible suggestions could be some quest lines that would create a story element within the game. Find out more about different mobs and give different clans more depth.

Some examples of this are male channelers and black towers. What if you were to channel in front of a person and they whispered you and said to meet them in behind the stables or something. They then sent you on a quest line that allowed you to meet and interact with the mobs of the Black Tower, get into a fight with a black ajah/red sister and finally to become a member of them.
But not all about clans. You can just find out that lugard is having troubles with bandits and you could go to the bandits and either help them and become a bandit of lugard being able to do quests such as waylay various travelers on the road. Or you can bring the head of the bandit leader to the lugard militia for a reward.

A better economy

Things like going around and being able to buy herbs to make potions. It will give a reason to have gold to buy these herbs and you can even buy pots so you can grow your own garden. Maybe a reason to have different types of food that will allow you to use herbs and different meat to 'cook' and get a buff because of it.

Item Decay

We need item decay to get rid of some excess gear in the game. Right now, we are eventually going to get to the point (if we're not at it already) where you pretty much need a full set to pk and it's not hard to get a full set because there's 20 available sets for every active in game. I think that full sets should be a little more difficult but not too retarded to get. Something that isn't tedious and boring (killing the same mob 20 times to get a certain item) but is difficult (killing several different mobs for different parts that drop 100% of the time, buying a couple items at a local store, mining some ore up, and than going to a specialist that will make you this highend dropped item).

I agree with all of your points, and all I'll say right now is that we hear you and are working harder than ever to make it happen.

Sonea wrote:I think to bring more people in this game, having more Sandbox like qualities.

We need to create more depth to the game and I think this will go a long way to adding more people and getting some different types of gamers here.

Quests

Some possible suggestions could be some quest lines that would create a story element within the game. Find out more about different mobs and give different clans more depth.

Some examples of this are male channelers and black towers. What if you were to channel in front of a person and they whispered you and said to meet them in behind the stables or something. They then sent you on a quest line that allowed you to meet and interact with the mobs of the Black Tower, get into a fight with a black ajah/red sister and finally to become a member of them.
But not all about clans. You can just find out that lugard is having troubles with bandits and you could go to the bandits and either help them and become a bandit of lugard being able to do quests such as waylay various travelers on the road. Or you can bring the head of the bandit leader to the lugard militia for a reward.

A better economy

Things like going around and being able to buy herbs to make potions. It will give a reason to have gold to buy these herbs and you can even buy pots so you can grow your own garden. Maybe a reason to have different types of food that will allow you to use herbs and different meat to 'cook' and get a buff because of it.

Item Decay

We need item decay to get rid of some excess gear in the game. Right now, we are eventually going to get to the point (if we're not at it already) where you pretty much need a full set to pk and it's not hard to get a full set because there's 20 available sets for every active in game. I think that full sets should be a little more difficult but not too retarded to get. Something that isn't tedious and boring (killing the same mob 20 times to get a certain item) but is difficult (killing several different mobs for different parts that drop 100% of the time, buying a couple items at a local store, mining some ore up, and than going to a specialist that will make you this highend dropped item).

We have a new quest system that will be imped "soon", I have tested it and it is very cool.

Our economy is lacking for sure, as to the herbs you can explore and find them on the ground free of charge.

I dislike eq decay, it's tedious and annoying at best.

More eq we can create through mining is always a plus, but this eq should never be made a smob dropped item as what happened to obsidian rings.

I'd suggest 2 pieces of eq for dodge, pb combo, and abs, make the eq a little better than top end but nothing op.

There needs to be a way to take gear out of the game without the need to whore the gear. I don't think it should be a quick or painful transition. Just slowly deteriorate so that when more and more gear gets in the game via smobbing and such it doesn't become overwhelming amount of good gear per active. I think it should be closely monitored based on the current population.

I think mining by itself is fine. However, I think other elements should play: PvEing, buying items to make gold more valuable, stuff like this. Sitting there mining for several hours a day doesn't mix things up and make you interested. I was quite bored with just the plain mining system. It wasn't very interactive. This craftable gear should be a very interactive multi-layered exercise.

The herbs was just an example of an interesting money sink with parts of the system in game already.

I also mentioned gardening. If you had to buy pots, soil, fertalizer and whatever else. And than every once in a while someone had to water your garden and you could make herbs. But someone could come by and pick them and steal your herbs and make some interesting drama/wars.

I agree on everything. One thing I wish is that we had some more rare weapons that were like intricate. Rare, like 2-4 in game, but good. I don't like how if you dont have a unique or a smithable weapon, you are basically useless. We really need to work on that.

My options to pk with as a combo basher is either my master, heron, intricate, or platinum sword. Spears/Lances are weak and skewer/charge never lands. Nobody falls for that, nobody. Maces, hatchets, etc don't cut it. Really we just should down platinum, imo, and up lower end weapons so they are ok. Or just fix lances/spears.

Quests I like, but please please no more repeatable quests for qps. Not picking on anyone, but really. It only takes time, and not skill/whatever to accomplish these farm quests. I don't think thats worth it.

I really like the idea of decay. Yea, it will be annoying, but eq is inflated. I have multiple full sets in both chests, and I really don't loot anyway. Case and point is Borrex's post about his smob loot. Yes, you want it to be playable here, but its to the point nothing will work in pk but a full set. With decay will come an economy.

Trin wrote:There needs to be a way to take gear out of the game without the need to whore the gear. I don't think it should be a quick or painful transition. Just slowly deteriorate so that when more and more gear gets in the game via smobbing and such it doesn't become overwhelming amount of good gear per active. I think it should be closely monitored based on the current population.

I think mining by itself is fine. However, I think other elements should play: PvEing, buying items to make gold more valuable, stuff like this. Sitting there mining for several hours a day doesn't mix things up and make you interested. I was quite bored with just the plain mining system. It wasn't very interactive. This craftable gear should be a very interactive multi-layered exercise.

The herbs was just an example of an interesting money sink with parts of the system in game already.

I also mentioned gardening. If you had to buy pots, soil, fertalizer and whatever else. And than every once in a while someone had to water your garden and you could make herbs. But someone could come by and pick them and steal your herbs and make some interesting drama/wars.

Someone who logs on after a long period of time shouldn't have any eq? Excess eq is not affecting me, you, or the game. Someone who enjoys smobbing should be allowed to have as much eq as they want, the only thing I dislike people storing are uniques and Fogel has taken a stance on that issue.

Any system that is run by the mud is going to be boring or get boring very quickly, there's only so much our imms can do to make things seem interesting and "interactive", if you want real interaction when it pertains to eq we need a good monetary system where money is actually worth something and players can trade or buy from each other.

As to the stealing of herbs, stealing period is not interesting or fun, we tried raiding clan rooms and chest and that only created tension amongst the players.

I do agree we need more money sinks, not forced ones but shops selling things that the players want to earn gold for and buy.

Chase wrote:I agree on everything. One thing I wish is that we had some more rare weapons that were like intricate. Rare, like 2-4 in game, but good. I don't like how if you dont have a unique or a smithable weapon, you are basically useless. We really need to work on that.

My options to pk with as a combo basher is either my master, heron, intricate, or platinum sword. Spears/Lances are weak and skewer/charge never lands. Nobody falls for that, nobody. Maces, hatchets, etc don't cut it. Really we just should down platinum, imo, and up lower end weapons so they are ok. Or just fix lances/spears.

Quests I like, but please please no more repeatable quests for qps. Not picking on anyone, but really. It only takes time, and not skill/whatever to accomplish these farm quests. I don't think thats worth it.

I really like the idea of decay. Yea, it will be annoying, but eq is inflated. I have multiple full sets in both chests, and I really don't loot anyway. Case and point is Borrex's post about his smob loot. Yes, you want it to be playable here, but its to the point nothing will work in pk but a full set. With decay will come an economy.

The weapon gap isn't primarily with smithable weapons but uniques, smithables, masters compared to a regular top end wpn.

The best part of eq not being hard to get is the lack of eq mongers and eq looting from pk. If eq becomes hard to get then people will loot and horde even more which would be counter productive to the mud.

As is it's easy to put a full set together so why would anyone choose to pk in crap, easy to get balances the fact that we need top end sets to pk.

There are several things being proposed in this thread, from equipment decay, to adding a currency based economy, to the supposed problem of too many people having top end gear. The solutions I have seen proposed thus far scare me, for I don't think anyone has taken a step back and looked at the natural consequences of implementing systematic changes in order to promote an economy for the sake of an economy.

With the removal of top end gear from the game, the equipment will pool at the top. What I mean by this is that the more experienced, and better, pkers will end up with a vast majority of the top end gear. Seeing as how these more skilled pkers will be able to kill more people and survive for longer periods of time, they will have the ability to collect many top end pieces. And with each piece one of these skilled pkers collect, the equipment gap between the skilled and the average and bad will become even wider. So what we end up with is the small amount of top pkers in the best gear who are not only better at pk in general, but also have built in advantages in pk namely in the form of better gear.

Another possible outcome is that someone in pk focuses on only surviving, and not really killing, in order to keep their top end sets while not losing any of their precious gear. What this does is allow someone who isn't one of the most skilled overall pkers to have an advantage over perhaps someone who is more skilled but takes more risks but who ends up dying and losing said top end gear. This top end equipment then gets collected by the conservative pker which makes him even harder to kill, resulting in said pker being even less likely to die, regardless of targeting in pk, because as is already mentioned, this is a conservative pker who will leave pk when signs of losing have emerged.

In either of these scenarios, which will play out, it's not a question of if, but when, the players who are already skilled or who are already extremely cautious in pk will have advantages in pk that have nothing to do with said skill. If prowess in pk is something to be aimed for or even admired, should it not be a result of someone's abilities? And not a result of their gear?

The pkers who unfortunately, for whatever reason, do not possess the skills necessary to excel in pk will be left behind not only in terms of pk ability but in the equipment system designed to make the top end pkers even more elite. The bad pkers will remain in the bad equipment, with the temporary glance or perhaps even ownership of a few nice pieces, only to be taken from them again by a better pker in short order. Helping to perpetuate the myth that this system is fair when in actuality the bad pker never much stood a chance, and will return to the bottom of the barrel from whence he came.

If we care about fairness on this mud at all, implementing the deletion of top end gear simply so there is less, so that a few top end pkers can have an even bigger advantage in pk is not the way to go.

As for my solution to make the situation of rares, uniques, and master weapons being the only viable options in regard to effectively pk I think a few things are in order.

The first of which is to get rid of master weapons. I find the idea of giving the best pkers a pk bonus through an improved weapon that can be issued via qps to be a ridiculous idea. This isn't only an issue of fairness, but an issue of balance. It's hard to balance dodge versus bash, ob versus how often you break someone's defense etc, when you've got added the idiocy of master weapons. I'm sure Fogel's job of balancing all equipment would be made much, much easier by the simple gesture of the removal of master weapons. I don't have any specific proposals for what should take their place, but I just ask that it's not pk related in the form of equipment, ob, damage, pb, or db.

Down uniques and rares to be closer to top end weapons. That's another balance and fairness nightmare. Rhilor, the herons, various unique/rare daggers are all ridiculous in terms of the damage output, bashing ability, stab ability, etc. These weapons are so much better than their normal alternatives that it makes the normal alternatives suck even more when changes are made to bash, etc so that these rares/uniques aren't destroying everyone.

As for the arguments about there being too much general equipment in game, just delete and get rid of all the shit end equipment. No one uses it, no one wants it, it has no use.

The route being proposed by some in regards to making an economy in order to spice things up is a bad proposition. It will ultimately widen the gap between the various different pk abilities, and won't do much of anything for balance. My proposed solutions, instead of the idea of deleting top end gear, will offer a better, more simple alternative. In the sense that balance between weapons, classes, dodge, abs, etc will be much easier, and in the sense that it promotes the fairest possible system that wouldn't overhaul everything.

The removal of master weapons is good idea for now. I would also recommend the removal of all rares/uniques temporarily. Once weapons are better laid out and balanced, then uniques can be adjusted and reintroduced. But for now, as you said Lamgwin, balancing while having to consider the large amount of masterweapons and unique/rares is not efficient.

For those of you wanting money sinks:

The ability to buy a horse that you can name and that can only be ridden by you.

The ability to retool equipment into whatever flowerly rp thing you want, for a cost.

The ability to buy a pet that will increase your experience gained, and that you can name, for the duration of a reboot.

These are just a few money sinks off the top of my head that won't screw up fairness or balance.

I disagree with you on one point Lamgwin. Crappy eq adds aesthetics to the world. It might not be used by PCs but would you rather generic mobs use nothing? I don't think low end eq detracts from any part of the game unless someone kills 500 mobs and dumps all their eq into a single zone and then its spammy, still doesnt really hurt anyone.

And while maybe balancing master weapons is a problem I would argue its basically the reason to be clanned. Not everyone is an amazing pker that masters... It just takes longer. At the very least they should be retooled weapons.

I think the largest problem in pk is the uniques. Mainly among the bashing weapons (though perhaps with daggers too not much experience using them). Herons and such are significantly better than anything else it does throw things out of whack espcially with the number of them.

Point conceded on shitty equipment having aesthetic value.

Temporary removal of uniques/rares until normal gear is balanced is fine with me too.

I just find that any weapon not a rare or master is worthless. I even feel pitiful with my master vs these weapons. I cant bash most dodge bashers or thieves. This isn't even mentioning supposed high-end eq.

For example:
Gleaming steel broad axe: Pretty decent axe. On an 18 str abs trolloc. Landed 0/17 on Cammori and had to resort to sitting at a patty spamming

Mahog Lance: This is terrible. Charge/skewer is literally worthless I see people letting me brick on purpose just so I can get lag. Plus 2h defense weapons cant match 1h defense weapons at all.

It really just goes on. Smith weapons are also really good, well maybe its just plat sword but I was told it has been downed some. On the other hand, masters really aren't that crazy. Mine personally sucks especially because I am limited to lblades if I want to use forms. If you take away master, what is the point of ranking besides rank 6 bonuses? Nothing..

I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for, but I think I pointed out a very simple way to get all the weapons back in balance, that is by getting rid of master weapons, downing uniques/rares, or removing them temporarily, then balancing all normal equip. Then perhaps re-adding uniques/rares or addressing rares/uniques after they've been downed and normal equipment has been balanced.

As so far as the point of ranking past rank 6, I've noticed you've gained more ranks than necessary. So, why do you do it? There could be a non-pk related bonus to mastering.

I maintain that it's just fundamentally stupid to give the best pkers pk bonuses.

I really had no point just echoing previous points. I gain ranks from pk when I am solo and nobody who is clanned was in the pk. So I do it out of nobody else needing.

Its stupid to give the best pkers pk bonuses? Should we just make it so everyone is on a level playing field? So lets make it so that anyone who is new gets a bonus to their chars to let them compete with the more experienced better. I say if I put in the work to accomplish certain feats, why can't I get a bonus? I don't want some random rp bonus or super mining ability. That may be appealing to others but for me it is not.

I agreed with your line of thought earlier about rarer high end eq fostering the best pkers or very conservative pkers, but isn't that what already happens? Except now everyone has full sets and only the good/lucky have rare equip. I personally thought we the mud came back up and top eq was rare and hard to get that pk was way more fun. Yea, people were pansies, but really, they will be like that no matter what, so it really doesn't affect much.

Chase wrote: Its stupid to give the best pkers pk bonuses? Should we just make it so everyone is on a level playing field? So lets make it so that anyone who is new gets a bonus to their chars to let them compete with the more experienced better.

I never said anything about new characters getting bonuses for their characters. Please refrain from using the strawman fallacy. And if that wasn't directed at me, it's a red herring. Either way you're either diverting the argument, or misrepresenting it. Don't do that please.

Chase wrote:I say if I put in the work to accomplish certain feats, why can't I get a bonus? I don't want some random rp bonus or super mining ability. That may be appealing to others but for me it is not.

Simply because you've played this game for a longer amount of time than others, and happen to be better at it doesn't entitle you to having bonuses that make you even better at pk. RP or other bonuses aren't appealing to me either, but what's even less appealing is holding the hands of the experienced with built in advantages that promote the strong being unfairly propped up by systematic bonuses.

Chase wrote:I agreed with your line of thought earlier about rarer high end eq fostering the best pkers or very conservative pkers, but isn't that what already happens? Except now everyone has full sets and only the good/lucky have rare equip. I personally thought we the mud came back up and top eq was rare and hard to get that pk was way more fun. Yea, people were pansies, but really, they will be like that no matter what, so it really doesn't affect much.

You just pointed out that that's what already happens, which is my point. If you down the uniques/rares, remove master weapons, etc then the advantage gained from these pieces of equipment by the good and conservative isn't as large at all. It still gives something for people to aim for but doesn't make it too incredibly unfair or imbalanced.

Wait...

I am like 3 scalps from mastering and we are going to get rid of the bonuses?

I quit. Non-looting, master-weapon-removing fools.

(Wait...I kind am serious about the master thing. I suck, and I've wasted a good portion of my life to get a weapon with extra dmg. Balls.)

Can you think of anything that doesn't give you bonuses in pk that you'd like as a bonus instead?

And can anyone attack my arguments based on fairness and balance in regard to my proposed changes? Yes, I know that it sucks to have your master weapon bonus taken away. But that's not the issue.

@Lamgwin.

I understand your worry about gear. I just have one thing to nitpick at. There's two types of gamers: sheep and wolves. Right now we have wolves and wannabe wolves. We have no sheep. The reason we have no sheep is we have nothing that attracts sheep. Nothing that's interactive. No depth to the game beyond pk and stuff that helps your pk. Getting gear via quest lines, stories, roleplay, and the such gets these sheep gear so they can look pretty for a day before big badass wolf comes along and blows their house down. Such adds depth to the game.

Also, I'm not dictating that gear last a week and than die. Or even wotmud's thing of making shit decay at such a rate that they are actually losing more gear than gaining it. Hell, for all I care, make it last years. But make it disappear EVENTUALLY. You can get a full set of gear in about a week of casual smobbing. Of any type of gear. That's not the case in wotmud where (at least on LS) getting anything, other than an abs set, any way short of pking in crap is ridiculous.

To be totally honest, i prolly wont play this mud without my master. i spent time working for it and if you take it away, then what do i have to play for? i know i can still play for the fun of pk and the interaction with other chars blah blah blah, but my goal on this char was my master weapon. i reached my goal and i enjoy using it.

Rather than have equipment decay, I think a better solution might be to be able to trade in gear to get other gear through some sort of exchange mob. So maybe you could do something like trade in a diamond earring and a heartstone ring and get a cuendillar bracelet. Some sort of system where you'd have a net outflow of equipment, but in getting rid of it you gain something else that you want.

I don't see a reason to remove master weapons or rares/uniques. Any problem with them is merely a symptom of the lack of planning that has gone into itemization. This problem will be addressed in the near future.

Can anyone attack my actual argument? On how it's fair to give the best pkers pk bonuses?

After wasting an hour of my life debating this with Lamgwin, I've found the solution.

"Fairness," as Lamgwin proposes, does not exist. This type of "fairness" can only exist in a vacuum-like state in which we are robots programmed identically.

Therefore, since Heritage, Evilina, Guerrero, Syrik, Otar, and I (there's more as well) all suck, Lamgwin is clearly superior. In order to bring balance to the force of the mud, the only plausible course of action is for Lamgwin to forfeit his privilege to use a master weapon. If he refuses, he is simply a hypocrite.

I feel like its hard to attack your arguement because it is a personal opinion and not based on facts. Its just a general philosophy. There are really no hard facts to say what is "fair" and "unfair."You say that you should not give good pkers pk bonuses. I feel like that overall philosophy is wrong though.

I pk so that I can improve my character. I enjoy pk most of the time, but improving my characters is also a major reason why I pk. If I do the work and put in the time to accomplish milestone such as master or remort, I would like enjoy the fruits of my labor. I don't see how just because others may not be as successful as me at pk, that I should forfeit my bonuses. Don't take from good pkers just because others cannot keep up.

I have been trying to ignore this metaphor, but I think it is going to come out. Say I work hard to make money. This allows me to go to college and make even more money, more than the person who cannot afford to go to college. Is it fair? I think yes because I put in the work to get that money. This is a pretty similar situation.

If you say hey, maybe we can give some non-pk bonuses. That really depends on a case by case basis on each character. I will say though that I think a large majority of the players will not care about non-pk bonuses. I don't. I know I have my own rank 9/10 rooms but I haven't entered them in months. Non-pk bonuses for players who are primarily geared towards pk are not attractive at all.

Sonea wrote: There's two types of gamers: sheep and wolves. Right now we have wolves and wannabe wolves. We have no sheep. The reason we have no sheep is we have nothing that attracts sheep.

This is the main problem here. I can't agree with this more..