Charge/Skewer Tweaks

Raiden · Post by **Raiden** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:04 pm

maybe we could have 2 sorts of charges, quick ones in the room, or ones that give longer messages, like Charge n dark, -- you move room while charging, maybe giving you more damage? The room n will show a message, XXX is preparing a charge from the south,

Might be a bit to hard to code thou!.

Post by **Rhollor** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:07 pm

Lances were made to be used on horse, unless I have completely misunderstood everything I have ever seen or read... I will see about lances being able to bash absers.

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:14 am

lances were also meant to just charge not melee one bit. they weren't even supposed to parry. yet the top end weapons have parry. why? because it's balanced that way. but thisn't about the fucking real this is a game and it needs to be balanced. having a spear that is uber skewer and uber melee and than giving humans bad melee weapons to charge with is stupid, utterly pointless.

you could actually 'melee' with a lance. you'd run around the guy on your horse hitting him with the force of the horse behind the blow. it could even sit a guy down.

and if you're going to be this way and make lances only good feature charge because of 'realisticness'(why weren't they realistic when trolls have them? why does it always have to be humans that are gotten up the butt) might as well remove lances completely and make spear the charge/skewer weapon. i'd rather be able to have some decent melee capabilities than to be able to charge trees.(which is pretty much all i can do with a lance). Whoever says you can't charge with a spear is utterly stupid. i could definitely lock a spear on my shoulder.

Raiden · Post by **Raiden** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:02 am

Anyone ever seen someone stop a charge by just attacking the charger? Has anyone seen jewelry that makes you parry,dodge more? Could you smith a 16.5 lb weapon even thou you use all your bars which total up to over 50-60lbs? Have you ever seen someones head been crushed to bloody fragments! multiple times i dont think so.... You might want as much realism as possible but some things have to be balanced out.

Raiden · Post by **Raiden** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:10 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance

Quote "The lance, under many names, was also heavily employed in the Asian steppe. In the strictest sense, the lance is a heavy, long thrusting spear used on horseback and couched under the arm on one hand. Often, any spear which is not thrown (e.g. a thrusting spear) is called a lance when used from horseback.

....
While it could still be generally classified as a spear, the lance tends to be larger - usually both longer and stouter and thus also considerably heavier, and unsuited for throwing, or for the rapid thrusting, as with an infantry spear

....

hese eventually lead to the rise of the longest type of spears ever, the pike. Ironically, this adaptation of the cavalry lance to infantry use was largely tasked with stopping lance-armed cavalry charges. During the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, these weapons, both mounted and unmounted,"

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:57 am

if you click on the awl spike link under 'Spears that are often considered lances include' it has this quote'

The ahlspiess was used in other countries as well, including England, and was a popular weapon along with the pollaxe in tournament foot combat among armoured knights.

It also says in the Yari link:

Yari (槍) is the Japanese term for spear, or more specifically, the straight-headed spear. The martial art of wielding the yari is called sōjutsu or (somewhat incorrectly) yarijutsu. Yari measured anywhere from one meter to upwards of six meters (3.3 to 20 feet). The longer versions were called omi no yari while shorter ones were known as mochi- or tae yari. The longest versions were carried by foot troops (ashigaru), while the samurai usually carried the shorter versions.

Post by **Rhollor** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:56 pm

I told you what I will do, thanks for proving me wrong. I dont have patience to read through all your research. Not to be mean, I just dont feel it necessary.

Im pretty sure our bit right now is bashing ability of lances on an abser, which I said I will work on, if there is something else please post it simply.

Gristlyn · Post by **Gristlyn** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:05 pm

I want an AWP. Ill PwN NoObS

Dimmu · Post by **Dimmu** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:08 pm

Been charging on my LS alt and was wondering if lag should be added to a missed charge? If a failed stab gets you 2 rounds delay, what about charge? Seeing as the charge timer is much less than the stab timer should some lag be added or are the skills that diverse that balance is already in effect?

Viral · Post by **Viral** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:25 am

Dimmu I think you get lagged if you GET charged. That might be they way of balancing out. But yeah missed charge or skewer would be nice if lag was added then you would have a chance of skewering or charging them back.

Raiden · Post by **Raiden** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:14 am

would be nice to get a smithable lance, like every other weapon cept for staff...

Post by **Rhollor** » Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:24 pm

Sorry took me so long, I have changed lances so that *some* should now bash full abs fairly often. Since I probably wont be doing too much mortal testing please post back with your thoughts.

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:10 am

what do you mean some should be able to bash full abs. they all should. that's their bonus over daggers and stab. or it's supposed to be.

Quote by Galnor

Charge weapons also allow you to deal more damage, bash, and generally do more than tickle your opponents than short blades do

Well from what i see most lances have just about as much damage as a dagger(with attack) and less ob and only 'some' can bash full abs(that's full abs, the easiest thing to bash, probably 'none' can bash dodge, any type whatsoever). granted you get more pb but to be able to charge you need to be mounted which gives you a db malus which is all that really matters(db that is).

So what i see with this attempt to make stab and charge equal(and lances being 'realistic') is lances being pretty much heavy daggers without they're 'sneakiness'. daggers can still be used in an advantage if people actually used them as a sneaky move instead of 'flee stab'. while the only enemy you can surprise with a charge is a very inexperienced player, and the only people that play this game are the people that have played it for a long time and are still clinging to this mud thinking it can do good(meaning no inexperienced people all veterans at playing muds)

daggers are in every way equal or better than lances except for 1) pb and 2) shorter timer ability.

I for one am not going to play my charger until something is done about this. being able to bash a full abser 'fairly often' when he can bash me '100%' is not kicking it for me(especially since i'm in dodge). being able to use an ability that can be so so so easily interrupted is not kicking it for me either.

If i could make a suggestion to make charge better. I suggest that charge is changed so that k human/otoan/dark does not interrupt it 100% of the time. Instead it has the chance to not work at all or to get you charged for trying to attack a person charging you. Think of it like how we all have a chance for our notice not to go through. you can talk to chase about these experiences.

Post by **Galnor** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:09 pm

It should be blatantly obvious by now, especially after reading my -initial- post, that we are still working on these tweaks. When I said that spears/lances can deal more damage and allow you more offense, I meant that is how they work ideally, though not necessarily now.

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:06 pm

maybe to charge itself but not to lances. rhollor has said that he wants lances to be pretty much heavy daggers. he only changed the bash to 'some' to be able to bash full abs because we found evidence.

Post by **Rhollor** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:06 pm

All should be able to bash abs... A few will bash abs at a high percent. The way charge works does not allow for the stats to be set up to bash dodge. And like I said test before you complain please. If things need to be changed they can be.

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:31 am

the forgeable pike bashes top-end dodge (118 db) almost 100% and also charges nicely as well! why is there such a big difference between this forgeable spear, which I agree should be good as theres a lot of work to make it, and the forgeable chain, which has just as much work making it.

fyi the chain weighs 10 lbs, misses bashes on elks, and has useless ob, with moderate parry (its 1 handed)

can this be looked into please, chain needs upping!

Viral · Post by **Viral** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:46 am

I think if a forgeable lance is imped which I do think should happen, it should have high charge and say 15 parry but be one handed. That would make up for uberness of pike. Although pike does not bash 100% on you Darwin but enough to give you no chance of survival which sucks and is lame

.

Aj · Post by Aj » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:43 pm

most of the eq koradin imped were partially my design, I was wanting a chain with lower dmg but could bash, guess that didn't work out well

Raiden · Post by **Raiden** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:29 pm

up its lb to maybe same as Golden chain + 5 OB and make it 12 LBS/13 LBS
and you have your weapon.

Aj · Post by Aj » Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:21 pm

Well after testing lances vs spears I must say lances suck compared to spears, they are light, dont bash well, dont give any pb, and dont have great dmg. As opposed to the golden spear that loads on scout way way to much which is two handed, has awesome parry, weighs 15 lbs and bashes quite well with nice dmg.

guess yall got the realistic part down but to bad that makes playability less than desirable.

long golden lance - dencent pb with horrible ob, low weight
long light lance - low ob, db, weight, and dmg
curved silver lance - low ob, db, weight, and dmg

As I see it, if your dodge you can go lances but either suffer low ob and low pb, if your abs you will do less dmg than most other abs weapons, and I have yet to find a lance for a combo user.

Then theres the balance difference between lances and spear of trolls being able to sneak skewer, and being able to skewer in all rooms.

if theres better lances out there I haven't seen them yet.

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:09 pm

You got it about right aj i agree with you. hopefully lances are improved to better balance the game out instead of being 'realistic'

there is another lance that is higher lb(about 15 lbs) but has the same low ob and low damage of golden lance. it also is a 2h weapon that has very little pb.

you also forget ruby lance that has best 1h pb in game(but still pretty crappy all around weapon because of low ob and damage)

Lithium · Post by **Lithium** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:51 pm

Gold and jade hilted sword blows ruby lance parry out of the water.

Personally, I have no problems with golden lances, but that's because I use them on an abs warrior as a secondary weapon. It offers enough parry to block hits from some annoying mobs like trolloc scouts, has decent damage and can charge. The charge damage is quite nice when it lands. And if I come up against a defense character, I can whip out my axe and tear them apart.

The problem lies in people trying to use lances as a primary weapon. They work fine against absers, but when you come up against someone in a defense setup you can't do anything. Its the exact same situation that short blade users are in: the ob is too low to hit them, and most will not be able to land a bash. So you're basically limited to using charge (or backstab), which are useless against a melee defense character.

So here is my solution. Increase the ob of all daggers by a significant amount. Increase the ob of lances by a smaller amount, but also up their weight. No weapon should be completely useless in melee.

Dimmu · Post by **Dimmu** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:02 pm

It is as Lithoum said..

The problem lies in people trying to use lances as a primary weapon.

Lances are a shock tactic, hopefully inflicting a large enough amount of damage before you select a nice big weapon to kill with. If you want to charge and melee/dodge you are going to have to make sacrifices or change your playing style.

Trin · Post by **Trin** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:41 pm

Why? That's not exactly balanced. No weapon should have no melee capabilities or very crappy ones. Also spears are great weapons for melee so I don't understand why you are so adamant that lances should stay the way they are. Musashi even posted it that lances are really just another name for a spear.

Also you quote it like lithium wants lances to stay the way they are. and take it out of context. he has said that they should not.

No weapon should be completely useless in melee.