KinslayerMUD Forums

Uhl wrote:
"Fairness," as Lamgwin proposes, does not exist. This type of "fairness" can only exist in a vacuum-like stat in which we are robots programmed identically.

Simply because perfect fairness can't exist doesn't mean we should shrug off trying to make things more fair.

Chase wrote:I feel like its hard to attack your arguement because it is a personal opinion and not based on facts. Its just a general philosophy. There are really no hard facts to say what is "fair" and "unfair."You say that you should not give good pkers pk bonuses. I feel like that overall philosophy is wrong though.

Can you explain to me why it's good for fairness and balance for the best pkers to be handheld by game mechanics and equipment?

Chase wrote:I pk so that I can improve my character. I enjoy pk most of the time, but improving my characters is also a major reason why I pk. If I do the work and put in the time to accomplish milestone such as master or remort, I would like enjoy the fruits of my labor. I don't see how just because others may not be as successful as me at pk, that I should forfeit my bonuses. Don't take from good pkers just because others cannot keep up.

It isn't taking from good pkers just because others can't keep up. It's about -giving- good pkers tools to make them even better than their counterparts.

Chase wrote: I have been trying to ignore this metaphor, but I think it is going to come out. Say I work hard to make money. This allows me to go to college and make even more money, more than the person who cannot afford to go to college. Is it fair? I think yes because I put in the work to get that money. This is a pretty similar situation.

Although I think this belief in the free markets is what is driving most of your opinions about my proposed changes, I'm not going to get into this right now. If you can't even realize how unfair things are on a game, I don't expect you to come to that realization in real life.

Chase wrote:If you say hey, maybe we can give some non-pk bonuses. That really depends on a case by case basis on each character. I will say though that I think a large majority of the players will not care about non-pk bonuses. I don't. I know I have my own rank 9/10 rooms but I haven't entered them in months. Non-pk bonuses for players who are primarily geared towards pk are not attractive at all.

If all you play for is the accumulation of pk bonuses, then yes, I'm sorry my proposed changes won't do much for your own personal satisfaction. If, however, you enjoy other aspects of the game other than being propped up by bonuses, then you'll be fine.

Chase wrote:

Sonea wrote: There's two types of gamers: sheep and wolves. Right now we have wolves and wannabe wolves. We have no sheep. The reason we have no sheep is we have nothing that attracts sheep.

This is the main problem here. I can't agree with this more..

If you enjoy slaughtering defenseless animals instead of fighting other wolves, that's okay. But don't pretend it's fair or balanced.

What does "more fair" even mean? You are attempting to use abstract ideas to argue for concrete changes.

You agree that even if you remove master weapons and bonuses, the mud still isn't fair because some people have more zone knowledge and better links.

Therefore, why can't we make zones simple enough for everyone to understand? That is "more fair." But you then say that this idea isn't "fun." Clearly, the problem here is that you are defining what is "fair" and "fun" based on your perceptions of these terms.

Sheeps and Wolves. You are attempting to say that the masters of this mud feast on the new players. However, I think this is rarely the case. As today, when Lamgwin, Heritage, Otar, Evilina, and Uhl were pking, the only person not a master was Uhl.

Moreover, letÔÇÖs be honest. When pkers pk who arenÔÇÖt masters, itÔÇÖs usually one of our alts. Plus, every new player that we asked today said that did not care if masters got bonuses. They though it was ÔÇ£fairÔÇØ compensation for their hard work. Therefore, until we have an influx of new players who clearly feel taken advantage of by the current system, I donÔÇÖt understand the desire for a change.

Even then, what makes this mud better than others, such as WoTMud, is that most of us usually display respect towards new players. Most masters arenÔÇÖt going to continually rape and pillage a new player (though we may do that to each other at times because weÔÇÖve been playing so long together).

All these arguments probably are based on ideas shaped by our exposure to a supposed free-market system; however, I donÔÇÖt understand why keeping what you have earned is now a bad thing. Why donÔÇÖt we give everyone a trophy or master and all wallow in our mediocrity? Surely itÔÇÖs better to bring everyone down to the same watered-down level rather than to allow the more capable to achieve better things? And if ÔÇ£more capableÔÇØ is defined by having played longer on a mud, then who cares?

Also, this is just a game. Lamgwin, you are clearly attempting to make this mud your own socialist society. It is human nature to want control and to be better. Therefore, wouldnÔÇÖt you rather people get rid of those tendencies in a mud rather than real life? Obviously, you are going to say this only fosters a greater desire to do the same thing in real life. However, I disagree. We arenÔÇÖt talking about life or death or well-being on a mud. Surely we have more sense in real life.

[quote95="Uhl"]What does "more fair" even mean? You are attempting to use abstract ideas to argue for concrete changes. [/quote95]

I've already told you that "more fair" is about balancing the mud in a way that's within the grasp of the imms while not upsetting too many players. Namely in the mold of not giving people pk related bonuses that create an unfair playing field.

[quote95="Uhl"] You agree that even if you remove master weapons and bonuses, the mud still isn't fair because some people have more zone knowledge and better links.

Therefore, why can't we make zones simple enough for everyone to understand? That is "more fair." But you then say that this idea isn't "fun." Clearly, the problem here is that you are defining what is "fair" and "fun" based on your perceptions of these terms. [/quote95]

Yes it is more fair but this goes back to the "perfect fariness" and about what can be changed without upsetting too many people. I imagine changing all the zones to be straight lines, and handicapping people's links is something that would upset more people than simply taking away master weapons and would require much more effort to do so.

[quote95="Uhl"]Sheeps and Wolves. You are attempting to say that the masters of this mud feast on the new players. However, I think this is rarely the case. As today, when Lamgwin, Heritage, Otar, Evilina, and Uhl were pking, the only person not a master was Uhl.[/quote95]

New players aren't the only sheep. There are several players who have been here for a while that get steamrolled by the more bonused and more talented pkers. I don't think giving the more talented more bonuses is good in any sense of the word.

[quote95="Uhl"] Moreover, letÔÇÖs be honest. When pkers pk who arenÔÇÖt masters, itÔÇÖs usually one of our alts. Plus, every new player that we asked today said that did not care if masters got bonuses. They though it was ÔÇ£fairÔÇØ compensation for their hard work. Therefore, until we have an influx of new players who clearly feel taken advantage of by the current system, I donÔÇÖt understand the desire for a change.[/quote95]

I already told you this, just because your friend that's a new player says he doesn't mind master weapons, or because some other bad player says it, doesn't make master weapons fair or balanced. Simply stating that they're fair doesn't make them fair. You'll have to do better than that.

[quote95="Uhl"] Even then, what makes this mud better than others, such as WoTMud, is that most of us usually display respect towards new players. Most masters arenÔÇÖt going to continually rape and pillage a new player (though we may do that to each other at times because weÔÇÖve been playing so long together).[/quote95]

This mud is typically nice, but it doesn't change the fact that people such as Marne, Mioneas, Razhak, Rahz, Reamus, Beldan et all continually get rolled over so easily due to the best pkers having the best items all the time, along with bonuses from master, fade, blademaster, etc.

[quote95="Uhl"] these arguments probably are based on ideas shape by our exposure to a supposed free-market system; however, I donÔÇÖt understand why keeping what you have earned is now a bad thing. Why donÔÇÖt we give everyone a trophy or master and all wallow in our mediocrity? Surely itÔÇÖs better to bring everyone down to the same watered-down level rather than to allow the more capable to achieve better things? And if ÔÇ£more capableÔÇØ is defined by having played longer on a mud, then who cares? [/quote95]

I pointed this out to Chase. And this is very important for all of you to understand. This isn't about handicapping the best and bringing them down to the level of the worst. This is about not giving the best bonuses to make them even better than they are simply because of their gear, or their bonuses.

[quote95="Uhl"] Also, this is just a game. Lamgwin, you are clearly attempting to make this mud your own socialist society. It is human nature to want control and to be better. Therefore, wouldnÔÇÖt you rather people get rid of those tendencies in a mud rather than real life? Obviously, you are going to say this only fosters a greater desire to do the same thing in real life. However, I disagree. We arenÔÇÖt talking about life or death or well-being on a mud. Surely we have more sense in real life.[/quote95]

And because it's a game, it shouldn't be used to propagate the inequalities of real life. It be used as a tool to allow people to have fun without having built-in advantages for some while putting others at a disadvantage.

Also, if people want to get better, then why don't they become better instead of having gear and bonuses doing it for them?

I suggest stop argueing over ideologies and start talking concrete ideas to imp. No one cares if youre a socialist or not. This is a game, if you want change post suggestions for ideas. Not a dissertation on social reform.

Lamgwin wrote:

Chase wrote: I have been trying to ignore this metaphor, but I think it is going to come out. Say I work hard to make money. This allows me to go to college and make even more money, more than the person who cannot afford to go to college. Is it fair? I think yes because I put in the work to get that money. This is a pretty similar situation.

Although I think this belief in the free markets is what is driving most of your opinions about my proposed changes, I'm not going to get into this right now. If you can't even realize how unfair things are on a game, I don't expect you to come to that realization in real life.

This is exactly why there is no way to counter each others' points. This is a fundamental belief that you hold which is why you feel this is so unfair. I feel totally different. I agree with making it more equal and bringing the supposed "high-end" weapons more into line with rare/masters, but I don't think taking away from good pkers is the answer.

I agree with Uhl and I have felt this is the arguement you are posing for why you feel newer pkers need help. Yes, certain pkers often do not do well, but its not because of lack of eq. They are wearing the same equipment that I often wear, better if I am on an alt. Bringing others down to make them equal is not the answer. I don't agree with these socialist ideals you are trying to equate to pk. Pk is competitive, let the best person win. I was terrible and died constantly when I first started this mud, but you learn. Thats the whole point.

What is next? Lets just make each person choose what setup they want and make equipment immaterial and have each practice just give you the stats. Then make equipment only there for cosmetics. Then lets make everyone have all 19 stats so we are also equal. Uniqueness and differentiation is why we play this mud, not so we can be totally the same.

And really, you can't argue about socialism in general. Im not going into it, but theres a reason why socialism doesn't work. See how happy people are who experience it. It just breeds mediocrity and doing the minimum. Anything more than the minimum and you still get nothing. I hope you are not acting like you know how its unfair in real life. But off that subject..

I am predicting further diatribes on socialism. Try again in a new post please. Use actual suggestions for game implementations.

And no I am not attacking you Lamgwin, the post started out well but this is pointless now.